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Howling Abyss now on PBE!

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Eardar

Junior Member

04-15-2013

Quote:
Kilmourz:
Hi all, just wanted to share another pic of Howling Abyss wip and wanted to thank you for your interest. The map is in early Beta and has some rough spots but we wanted to get it out and hear what you think.. We'll be constantly updating the map in the coming weeks. Enjoy, it's just going to get better.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=637141&d=1363403776
is this pic the actual size; the minion and turrets look small


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Stallingard

Member

04-16-2013

this week please!


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Reddax95

Junior Member

04-16-2013

Quote:
Eardar:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=637141&d=1363403776
is this pic the actual size; the minion and turrets look small

Look at the minions. This is just a zoomed out version of the map, to show you it all in one picture :P


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bigred66

Member

04-17-2013

as much as i love the idea, im trying to test it on pbe and people just leave because they arent happy with the champions they get. how can you stop this from happening once it goes live?


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Lord Shoemaker

Junior Member

04-17-2013

Algorithm Suggestions to reduce Leavers on ARAM/Howling Abyss

This is my first post ever on a League of Legends forum so please excuse me if I make any etiquette mistakes (gulp!). As a game spec designer with a focus on game balancing algorithms, I just wanted to put my 2 cents in sooooo here goes nothing!...

ARAM NOT RANDOM
Theoretically I don't think that matchmaking in ARAM at "true random" (meaning completely random champion selection based on a player's currently owned champs plus the 10 free champs) is ever going to work out.

You are going to have too many leavers. Yes the Leaver Buster will reduce the total percentage of leavers, and probably significantly at that, but it's addressing more the symptom than the source. The source is in how the random generator works.

Random is not truly random anyway. Some players own only a handful of champs and others may own a lot. Some may have even paid a lot of money to use Riot points to get a bundle of champs plus individual champ purchases, but they are then punished for doing so because they randomly get champs that aren't great for this map or because the team comp doesn't look formidable. Yes one can argue that this encourages them to 'master' all of the champs they bought, but perhaps rewarding a player's purchase should outweigh coaxing a player to play all of his champs for a particular map.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION: LET GO OF "TRUE RANDOM"
I think it would be okay to 'modify the random generator' a bit...

I was only able to log in a few hundred ARAM Proving Grounds games on my smurf account, but I found that there was an element in team compositions that made a team 'standard' or 'good' or 'formidable' and that element was "poke." However, I'd like to first clear what that word means when used in an ARAM setting...

"Poke" - In this posting does not refer to a champ using ranged auto attack. It refers to a champ using an offensive ability/ulti that reaches as far (or farther preferably) than a typical ranged auto attack. This is why you will notice that Blind Pick Proving Grounds maps have an abundance of Nid, Yi, Lux, Jayce, Ezreal, Ashe, Zyra and Ziggs players, for example.

I noticed that most (not all, but most) players were often leaving a random pick game for one of three reasons:
1. Their own champ was too weak on poke for ARAM.
2. Their team comp had weak or no poke for ARAM.
3. Both 1 and 2.

Solution: Now this is going to be where you hate me because true randomness is going to be thrown out the window. All champs need to have an ARAM poke rating. During random champion selection, the algorithm needs to have a biased formula that places a "minimum of 2 heavy pokes" on a team. I say minimum and not absolutely 2 because I rarely saw a player leave when the team had 'too much poke.' I almost always saw a player leave (present company included) when there was no poke.

Counter-Argument: But a team of 4 to 5 tanks almost always wins if the match reaches mid or late game. Answer: I also noticed that sometimes (albeit rarely) a heavy poking team had to use more skill, communication and teamwork to beat a tank heavy team AND this may be a moot issue following the removal of Warmogs for this map.

What about CC and Support? That's okay because the algorithm proposes a 'minimum' of two not 'always 5.' Yes, there will be room for Sona, Blitz, Janna, etc. and it also helps that many of the heavy pokers have supportive elements (e.g. Nid's heal, Lux's shield, Ezreal's attack speed boost shot, Jayce's movement boost gate, etc.) and/or CC elements (e.g. Lux's root, Ashe's slows or ulti stun, Zyra's root or ulti-knock-up or seed slow shots, Zigg's' knock-up-charge, etc.). Jeez Lux's name sure comes up a lot! lol

What I am not sure about is "How deep should you go into the 'biased random generator' adjustments?" This could open a huge can of variables. For example, here are some other issues that may arise, but I don't have access to your player gaming statistics so I cannot speak with any significant certainty:

1. Should the random generator (henceforth 'random generator' will be referred to as 'RG') also always include a minimum of 1 tank? Or a minimum of 1 to a maximum of 2 tanks if the above-mentioned tanky team comp is still OP? Or simply a maximum cap of 2 so that it's possible to have team comps that range from '5 pokes and no tanks,' to '2 pokes, 1 support and 2 non-tank free slots,' to etc. etc. etc. (you know, the whole "Everyone wants to be a carry star and not the slow tank" thing)?

2. Should the RG always have at least 1 champ with CC? Or just a maximum cap of 3? I noticed that teams with tremendously more (not just a little more) CC almost always won.

3. Should the RG always have at least 1 support? Or a minimum of 1 to a maximum of 2 so that the team comp never gets too weak? Yes there were a few games where I got schooled by a team that had Karma, Soraka and Sona, but was that more the exception than the balanced rule?

4. Should the RG always make sure that the team has either 2 AP and 3 AD champs or 3 AP and 2 AD? Or should the algorithm simply make sure there is a minimum of 1 of each because I noticed that teams with 1 AD and 4 AP or vice versa still worked out okay? I think that it is very important to address this point of balancing out a team to have both AD & AP because I noticed a lot of leavers complained of "too much AD" or "too much AP".

5. If the RG were to use all or some of the 5 points above, (5 because I'm including the minimum-2-pokes point) then have we COMPLETELY defeated the spirit of "ALL RANDOM all mid?"

Personally, I think that the combination of the Leaver Buster and the algorithm of having at least 2 pokes will improve things significantly. Using ALL of the elements mentioned above, however, will make teams very balanced and fair and, hence more importantly, will make game play much more enjoyable at the cost of not being ARAM but actually, AKRAM (All Kind of Random All Mid - hey at least saying the acronym clears your throat so there is medicinal value here too). But seriously, if diehards out there are actually personally offended by ARAM not becoming truly random, then perhaps a name change would be in order? Something like BRAM (Balanced Random All Mid) or something else?

Or there could be the BRAM mode for balance AND the ARAM mode for true random diehards?

As for those people that don't own very many champs, I noticed that the ten free champs each week almost always included at least 1, if not 2 good pokes.

RE-ROLL SYSTEM STILL ROCKS
In addition, the Re-roll System could still be implemented as it will further reduce leavers, while also rewarding those players that have spent much time and/or money accumulating more champs.

OP CHAMPS THAT ARE TOO OP
As for champs that remain awfully OP no matter what you do, there is always the last resort of nerfing the champ ONLY for this map (e.g. limiting Yi's reset of Alpha Strike to once per ulti or something along those lines). Or if that's too silly, then further tweaking on the champ across all maps. E.g. nerfing Yi's alpha strike by taking out its reset completely (regardless of the map), but balancing that out by buffing up the damage of alpha and/or its range, or one/some of his other abilities, etc.

Personally, I would love to see these adjustments for OP Yi - Nerfs: Take out the reset on Alpha Strike completely. Reduce the AP scaled damage from 100% to 90%. Buffs: Add 30% of AD to the total damage of Alpha Strike. ALSO, Yi can now target friendly units so that he can end up next to an allied unit or champion when the Alpha Strike finishes - the sacrifice being that the friendly unit will still 'use up' 1 unit of length of his Alpha Strike. These adjustments allow for AD Yi builds (the guy is a 'sword' master after all), they allow him to make skilled escapes and they require more skill on the player to carefully choose how far he wants to poke or when he should use his one Alpha Strike before cool down. Wups - sorry didn't mean to sneak in a Yi build discussion into this post but it certainly also applies to his presence in ARAM.

Finally, a somewhat unrelated-to-the-post-title suggestion. If you do decide to offer a Blind Pick mode as well, I think the Random Pick mode should offer more IP/XP than Blind Pick to reward those that face the challenge of random (errrr semi-kinda-sorta-quasi-random) versus comfortable blind picking.

Aaaaaand that's pretty much it for now. Yes there definitely are A LOT more variables unaccounted for, but these are just a few observations and suggestions.


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Zinggle

Junior Member

04-17-2013

Quote:
hamdogg:
Dear Riot.

Can you please make it so you can queue with more than 5 people. Half the reason my friends and I play ARAM is because more of us can play together at the same time (say 8) and laugh along with each other in Team Speak as someone dies to a Nidalee spear or Master Yi pulls off a penta (ruins his quadra). With this new queue system no-one solo or duo will try and find an ARAM in custom they will just auto queue. The only people who will solo custom ARAM's will be trolls who leave or AFK. So I implore you to make the option available to queue as 7 or 8 for the good of myself and I'm sure many others who love ARAM. Surely I'm not the only one with this fear it could go missing.

Look at my history, I have played well over 1000 ARAMs since it's release and while I don't mind the removal of blind spots in base (yes many lulz had hiding in here with nunu, nid, blotz. etc), I really will be disappointed if I can't play ARAMs with all the same friends I could last week. Please don't take a step backwards here and take away an option which has been the most underrated part of LOL imho. We will miss it if it goes.

BTW I love the way you have made the map sexy and chilly. With lil' sheeps to stand on!


That's quite a terrible Idea, because I quickly leave matches when I see premades. That just ruins the whole sense of "Random" when your whole team just came in together.


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H4ckSp33d

Junior Member

04-17-2013

[spoiler]

Quote:
Lord Shoemaker:
Algorithm Suggestions to reduce Leavers on ARAM/Howling Abyss

This is my first post ever on a League of Legends forum so please excuse me if I make any etiquette mistakes (gulp!). As a game spec designer with a focus on game balancing algorithms, I just wanted to put my 2 cents in sooooo here goes nothing!...

ARAM NOT RANDOM
Theoretically I don't think that matchmaking in ARAM at "true random" (meaning completely random champion selection based on a player's currently owned champs plus the 10 free champs) is ever going to work out.

You are going to have too many leavers. Yes the Leaver Buster will reduce the total percentage of leavers, and probably significantly at that, but it's addressing more the symptom than the source. The source is in how the random generator works.

Random is not truly random anyway. Some players own only a handful of champs and others may own a lot. Some may have even paid a lot of money to use Riot points to get a bundle of champs plus individual champ purchases, but they are then punished for doing so because they randomly get champs that aren't great for this map or because the team comp doesn't look formidable. Yes one can argue that this encourages them to 'master' all of the champs they bought, but perhaps rewarding a player's purchase should outweigh coaxing a player to play all of his champs for a particular map.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION: LET GO OF "TRUE RANDOM"
I think it would be okay to 'modify the random generator' a bit...

I was only able to log in a few hundred ARAM Proving Grounds games on my smurf account, but I found that there was an element in team compositions that made a team 'standard' or 'good' or 'formidable' and that element was "poke." However, I'd like to first clear what that word means when used in an ARAM setting...

"Poke" - In this posting does not refer to a champ using ranged auto attack. It refers to a champ using an offensive ability/ulti that reaches as far (or farther preferably) than a typical ranged auto attack. This is why you will notice that Blind Pick Proving Grounds maps have an abundance of Nid, Yi, Lux, Jayce, Ezreal, Ashe, Zyra and Ziggs players, for example.

I noticed that most (not all, but most) players were often leaving a random pick game for one of three reasons:
1. Their own champ was too weak on poke for ARAM.
2. Their team comp had weak or no poke for ARAM.
3. Both 1 and 2.

Solution: Now this is going to be where you hate me because true randomness is going to be thrown out the window. All champs need to have an ARAM poke rating. During random champion selection, the algorithm needs to have a biased formula that places a "minimum of 2 heavy pokes" on a team. I say minimum and not absolutely 2 because I rarely saw a player leave when the team had 'too much poke.' I almost always saw a player leave (present company included) when there was no poke.

Counter-Argument: But a team of 4 to 5 tanks almost always wins if the match reaches mid or late game. Answer: I also noticed that sometimes (albeit rarely) a heavy poking team had to use more skill, communication and teamwork to beat a tank heavy team AND this may be a moot issue following the removal of Warmogs for this map.

What about CC and Support? That's okay because the algorithm proposes a 'minimum' of two not 'always 5.' Yes, there will be room for Sona, Blitz, Janna, etc. and it also helps that many of the heavy pokers have supportive elements (e.g. Nid's heal, Lux's shield, Ezreal's attack speed boost shot, Jayce's movement boost gate, etc.) and/or CC elements (e.g. Lux's root, Ashe's slows or ulti stun, Zyra's root or ulti-knock-up or seed slow shots, Zigg's' knock-up-charge, etc.). Jeez Lux's name sure comes up a lot! lol

What I am not sure about is "How deep should you go into the 'biased random generator' adjustments?" This could open a huge can of variables. For example, here are some other issues that may arise, but I don't have access to your player gaming statistics so I cannot speak with any significant certainty:

1. Should the random generator (henceforth 'random generator' will be referred to as 'RG') also always include a minimum of 1 tank? Or a minimum of 1 to a maximum of 2 tanks if the above-mentioned tanky team comp is still OP? Or simply a maximum cap of 2 so that it's possible to have team comps that range from '5 pokes and no tanks,' to '2 pokes, 1 support and 2 non-tank free slots,' to etc. etc. etc. (you know, the whole "Everyone wants to be a carry star and not the slow tank" thing)?

2. Should the RG always have at least 1 champ with CC? Or just a maximum cap of 3? I noticed that teams with tremendously more (not just a little more) CC almost always won.

3. Should the RG always have at least 1 support? Or a minimum of 1 to a maximum of 2 so that the team comp never gets too weak? Yes there were a few games where I got schooled by a team that had Karma, Soraka and Sona, but was that more the exception than the balanced rule?

4. Should the RG always make sure that the team has either 2 AP and 3 AD champs or 3 AP and 2 AD? Or should the algorithm simply make sure there is a minimum of 1 of each because I noticed that teams with 1 AD and 4 AP or vice versa still worked out okay? I think that it is very important to address this point of balancing out a team to have both AD & AP because I noticed a lot of leavers complained of "too much AD" or "too much AP".

5. If the RG were to use all or some of the 5 points above, (5 because I'm including the minimum-2-pokes point) then have we COMPLETELY defeated the spirit of "ALL RANDOM all mid?"

Personally, I think that the combination of the Leaver Buster and the algorithm of having at least 2 pokes will improve things significantly. Using ALL of the elements mentioned above, however, will make teams very balanced and fair and, hence more importantly, will make game play much more enjoyable at the cost of not being ARAM but actually, AKRAM (All Kind of Random All Mid - hey at least saying the acronym clears your throat so there is medicinal value here too). But seriously, if diehards out there are actually personally offended by ARAM not becoming truly random, then perhaps a name change would be in order? Something like BRAM (Balanced Random All Mid) or something else?

Or there could be the BRAM mode for balance AND the ARAM mode for true random diehards?

As for those people that don't own very many champs, I noticed that the ten free champs each week almost always included at least 1, if not 2 good pokes.

RE-ROLL SYSTEM STILL ROCKS
In addition, the Re-roll System could still be implemented as it will further reduce leavers, while also rewarding those players that have spent much time and/or money accumulating more champs.

OP CHAMPS THAT ARE TOO OP
As for champs that remain awfully OP no matter what you do, there is always the last resort of nerfing the champ ONLY for this map (e.g. limiting Yi's reset of Alpha Strike to once per ulti or something along those lines). Or if that's too silly, then further tweaking on the champ across all maps. E.g. nerfing Yi's alpha strike by taking out its reset completely (regardless of the map), but balancing that out by buffing up the damage of alpha and/or its range, or one/some of his other abilities, etc.

Personally, I would love to see these adjustments for OP Yi - Nerfs: Take out the reset on Alpha Strike completely. Reduce the AP scaled damage from 100% to 90%. Buffs: Add 30% of AD to the total damage of Alpha Strike. ALSO, Yi can now target friendly units so that he can end up next to an allied unit or champion when the Alpha Strike finishes - the sacrifice being that the friendly unit will still 'use up' 1 unit of length of his Alpha Strike. These adjustments allow for AD Yi builds (the guy is a 'sword' master after all), they allow him to make skilled escapes and they require more skill on the player to carefully choose how far he wants to poke or when he should use his one Alpha Strike before cool down. Wups - sorry didn't mean to sneak in a Yi build discussion into this post but it certainly also applies to his presence in ARAM.

Finally, a somewhat unrelated-to-the-post-title suggestion. If you do decide to offer a Blind Pick mode as well, I think the Random Pick mode should offer more IP/XP than Blind Pick to reward those that face the challenge of random (errrr semi-kinda-sorta-quasi-random) versus comfortable blind picking.

Aaaaaand that's pretty much it for now. Yes there definitely are A LOT more variables unaccounted for, but these are just a few observations and suggestions.
[/spoiler]


No man, I mean, I did & I still do a lot of ARAM, I have all champions & they are ALL good in the new map, I mean it, seriously they are all good even if YES, poke is an advantage but it is ARAM, all random.

Just make 2 different queues, ARAM & draft so people can play what they want.

Random is random


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Stelard Actek

Junior Member

04-17-2013

100% serious request: Please allow us to play Co-op vs AI on this map!

75% serious request: Please add an 'all yordle' option to the PvP queue for this map for those people who want to play AYAM instead of just ARAM. :P


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Soccerj7

Recruiter

04-18-2013

You guys need to add the "Blind Pick" option for this map as well. And "Draft Mode" then create a ranked system for Proving Grounds. Its the long await Ranked game for 1 lane. Not the 3 lanes on SR or 2 lanes on Twisted Treeline, but 1 single lane on Proving Grounds for ranked games.


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Leoric Wuju

Senior Member

04-18-2013

Quote:
RiotBamDragon:
omg i cannot wait!!!


Neither can I!

This is a brilliant idea. It intricately weaves into the new story that is Freljord based, and satisfies the purpose to bring ARAM out as an stand-alone-complex mode

p.s. I'm not on the PBE, but we do get to play Co-op on Howling Abyss when it comes live, like we can in Twisted Treeline, yes?