Karma's new passive is forced synergy and changes her identity!

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Ninth Belief

Senior Member

03-15-2013

A lot of the gameplay that I loved about Karma was her ultimate, like Riot said -- that much is true. However, a lot of Karma's identity was that the lower her health was, the more of a threat she became, which made for *really* exciting gameplay, some cool item options, and had a lot of synergy that wasn't forced since she had a heal based on % missing health and a shield (that scaled off the AP you were getting from your passive).

I was really sad to see that the unique heal was gone, but I understood why...mostly. I was actually pretty excited about Riot removing her fans too, after I heard the reasoning for it. However, her new passive feels extremely forced -- I get that Mantra had a large CD and that it felt like it was a good idea to implement a passive that you could use to efficiently widdle the CD down, but she could actually BUILD cooldown reduction -- she didn't have to build like every other AP carry. Not many AP carries benefit from CDR, and Karma's current/original cd's encouraged you to encorporate some into your build. This left a lot of room for the really cool passive she has at the moment.

If you remove that passive, there's no longer anything "karmatic" about her. There's no punishment for being unable to finish her off. There's no reward for playing her incredibly at low health. You're removing a lot of the fun aspect about her, and I'd *really* like to encourage you to bring that back. If you're dying to keep her new passive, you could just add the old one as a passive to Mantra that scaled with level. I'd be ready to deal with the lower numbers that came as a result of that, though obviously I'm speaking for myself in that regard.

I'll zip up my flamesuit, now.
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Edit: We have redposts in the thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I agree with you that there's no longer anything 'Karmatic' about her gameplay in her rework now that we've removed the old Inner Flame - there's no reward for playing her at incredibly low health, because there isn't supposed to be.

The old passive was really rough playing against. As Karma's opponent, you were typically making decision after incorrect decision, giving Karma invisible power by taking actions that you believed intuitively were correct. Even playing as, if your 'bait' didn't work out, you'd kind of just die - and then feel betrayed for playing karma the way you believed she should be working.

So, we had a choice to make very early on - keep the baiting passive and fully support it throughout the kit (make baiting 'her thing'), or move her in a direction that kept interaction high, readability and viscerality high, and gave her high impact moments akin to an ultimate not fully tied to those 'reversal' moments. We opted to go with the one that we felt was healthier for our game.

Karma's new playstyle is one of tension, and momentum. As Mantra only has one charge and is on a regular cooldown, the flow of battle is altered by calculated and consistent aggression on the part of Karma - Soulflare followed up by auto-attacks and Inner Flame assault your opponent with the goal of reloading your Mantra to keep the battle going in your favor - Karma is rewarded by taking actions, not by hoping your opponent makes a mistake. Her passive is tough to 'feel' on paper, but if you're worried about her losing too much of her feel due to the changes, she still has a lot of high impact reversal capability, but in a way that feels more fair and fulfilling alike.
Scarizard, I'm a huge fan of your posts on the forum and I can appreciate your outgoing attitude. Thanks for posting. You've really got me conflicted here, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I agree with you that there's no longer anything 'Karmatic' about her gameplay in her rework now that we've removed the old Inner Flame - there's no reward for playing her at incredibly low health, because there isn't supposed to be."
Her name is Karma. There's nothing left in her kit to represent this. It seems that both you and Morello are tiptoeing around that actual subject in lieu of repeatedly telling Karma players that liked Karma's passive were attached to a toxic mechanic. I don't think your intentions are to sound condescending, but you have to realize how this sounds. "In response to Karma having nothing karmic in her gameplay, I would like to say that Karma having anything karmic in her kit is unintended in post-rework Karma."

Morello then swoops in to say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because, to be frank, the costs of this skill being there outweigh the benefits in the overall gameplay spectrum - even if you are attached to something that exists, it doesn't mean it doesn't damage the character's potential viability and game health. This is a hard truth to swallow, but there it is.

Specifically, when things are changed, people will get upset if they liked the old thing - whether the new thing is superior or not is of little consequence when attachment exists. That makes sense, which is why when we do remove things that aren't working, we know we're paying a cost in how much we can upset current players of the character. Sometimes it's the right decisions - Karma's one of those cases.

We've explained several times why this passive was problematic. Baiting is maintained through the decisions you make in the kit instead of with passive, free power - something we've spoke a lot about not being good for gameplay and specifically counter-play. We understand really, really die-hard current players will be attached to most things something has, even if it's a bad thing to have. Karma's passive is one of those things.
Again, I really don't think your intentions are to sound condescending, but I feel like I'm being treated like an idiot when you say "Baiting is maintained through the decisions you make in the kit instead of with passive, free power". Is Olaf's passive an exception, then? What makes it an exception? What is Tryndamere's kit to Riot? Other examples have been given throughout the thread, and I have faith the Lead Content Designer Morello wouldn't just ignore those kinds of bold examples of the same exact passive you're saying is "a bad thing".

I know we've butted heads before on various things (namely Malzahar and QSS), and I hope you aren't taking that into consideration when you're responding to this thread.

Edit again: A week later and no new red response, but I've tested out the new Karma on the PBE. The thread I made for that is here.

Created this thread a while ago regarding Karma's relaunch, mostly for the passive change -- Red responses said her old kit was unable to ever be truly balanced, but that her new kit still felt very Karma. I was unwilling to take their word, but thought I'd give it a shot before I got too up in arms.

Well -- I've played her many, many times since then, and I've made my conclusion.

Note that this is solely about Karma's kit, and my opinion hardly differs between Support or AP Carry Karma.

The big points:

Q is a great spell that had both kinds of Karma in mind...kinda. It's definitely amazing for support. A slow that strong on a rank 1 skill is great for support, easily allows your ADC an extra hit or two. For AP Carry Karma, the only disappointing aspects of this spell are that it doesn't have as much aoe as the old cone did, and therefore it's kinda crappy to AOE farm with; maxing E like AP Karma used to is no longer going to be an option at all, because Mantra has a 40 second cooldown.

W -- at first glance, I hated it, and there were DEFINITELY times where I really wished I could latch onto a minion for the MS boost, and there were also times where I wished I could save an ADC with the MS boost from the old W. However, I definitely like the new one. The CC is great for support, and the self heal on the Mantra can be a lifesaver. Definitely felt great to lock people down in tower range or to seperate a diving Vi from her team whilst stopping her engage at the same time. I will say it's a bit throttling that she has a self only heal now and I kinda wish I could link to friendly champions still, but the MS boost from E would make that redundant.

E was a spell I could only be certain was doomed. The duration was lowered, the AP ratio was lowered, it had what looked to be a clunky MS boost on it, hell, the damage dealt and the shield given weren't even the same ratio (which is I assume is the factor that was hard to balance in the previous kit). I was pleasantly surprised that it was far and away my favorite spell. It's literally a free Reverie+Locket if you can position it accordingly and have your Mantra up, and the MS boost I thought was going to be clunky actually felt very good to use -- the fact that it's on the shield now feels much more "correct" or "optimized" for lack of better terms. I will forever miss shield-bombing people, though. It was a huge part of old AP Karma's gameplay, and it might as well not even exist in her new kit.

Her mantra. Jesus, as the one feature Riot made sure to advertise as the "spirit" of old Karma living in the new one, this is an INCREDIBLE disappointment. With 40% CDR and max rank, it's a 27 second cooldown. That's 3 seconds less than the old Mantra when it had 2 charges and NO CDR WHATSOEVER.

Upon realizing this, it's like they tried to cover it up with duct tape by giving her an incredibly generic and overused passive of "free cdr!". Mind you, the CDR only works when you hit champions, one of your spells is ONLY single target, and your autoattacks have some of the smallest range in the game, even with the changes. Not only that, but the passive in itself is hardly noticeable as a real passive -- it feels like it should just be some extra detail on her ultimate, yet it takes up her entire passive. Imagine if Elise's passive was "extra MS in spiderform". "Sorry, no more baby spiders!". That's the potential they're taking away from Karma when they give her this watered-down beyond belief passive.

Past gameplay, I have to say her new VO is an insult to Karma's character. Between old Karma's Buddhist, Hindu, Jain and Sikh beliefs, and her being an icon of Ionia (which is pretty widely recognized as Runeterra's version of Asia) at what point did Karma become an overly stereotypical black lady? I have no issue with the voice actor herself, as her voiceacting seems to be just fine, but "YOOW KNOW WHAT THEYA SA(e)Y -- KARMA ALWAYS CATCHES UP TO-YOOW!" is plainly ridiculous for her character. I like the way new Karma looks, but I see now why Riot kept her old voiceacting for Traditional Karma -- it's the only way people are going to even remotely get that same gloriously possibly-half-sarcastic voice acting from her original voice. I suppose that's just one man's opinion, though.

Overall, balance-wise she's likely fine, She's an incredible support and at least an average AP Carry, which I suppose is what people wanted from her anyway, and in that aspect Riot "nailed it outta the park". I still can't get past their lack of a want to create a better and personal passive for what used to be a beautifully unique Karma.


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TheFunderstorm

Senior Member

03-15-2013

I like how she has no Passive now. Her current "passive" should be a part of her ultimate....


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Tigrian

Senior Member

03-15-2013

i actually agree with this. i feel like the cd reduction aspect should be an inherent part of Karma, but my inkling is they made this her passive for balance concerns. Hopefully this means she has some generous ratios.


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Yeah, I'll miss her current passive. Considering her new passive is exactly the sort of thing that should be just part of her ult, I'm a little disappointed about that part.


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Snuggly PuffPuff

Junior Member

03-15-2013

bump


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ElBoob

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Senior Member

03-15-2013

Going to miss that old passive, but overall it seems like a good rework.
My big problem is the removal of her heal.


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Larias

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Adjudicator

03-15-2013

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We've explained several times why this passive was problematic. Baiting is maintained through the decisions you make in the kit instead of with passive, free power - something we've spoke a lot about not being good for gameplay and specifically counter-play. We understand really, really die-hard current players will be attached to most things something has, even if it's a bad thing to have. Karma's passive is one of those things.
You're right. I'm sold.

Sorry OP - I was with you. But this argument that Morello makes is clear, concise, and most importantly, right.

Thanks for taking the time to respond Morello and Scar.


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Matter of Course

Senior Member

03-15-2013

OP makes a shockingly good point. +1


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ihaveapotion

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninth Belief View Post
A lot of the gameplay that I loved about Karma was her ultimate, like Riot said -- that much is true. However, a lot of Karma's identity was that the lower her health was, the more of a threat she became, which made for *really* exciting gameplay, some cool item options, and had a lot of synergy that wasn't forced since she had a heal based on % missing health and a shield (that scaled off the AP you were getting from your passive).

I was really sad to see that the unique heal was gone, but I understood why...mostly. I was actually pretty excited about Riot removing her fans too, after I heard the reasoning for it. However, her new passive feels extremely forced -- I get that Mantra had a large CD and that it felt like it was a good idea to implement a passive that you could use to efficiently widdle the CD down, but she could actually BUILD cooldown reduction -- she didn't have to build like every other AP carry. Not many AP carries benefit from CDR, and Karma's current/original cd's encouraged you to encorporate some into your build. This left a lot of room for the really cool passive she has at the moment.

If you remove that passive, there's no longer anything "karmatic" about her. There's no punishment for being unable to finish her off. There's no reward for playing her incredibly at low health. You're removing a lot of the fun aspect about her, and I'd *really* like to encourage you to bring that back. If you're dying to keep her new passive, you could just add the old one as a passive to Mantra that scaled with level. I'd be ready to deal with the lower numbers that came as a result of that, though obviously I'm speaking for myself in that regard.
You have all my internets.

I fully support this post.

p.s. Larias you're awesome for linking this in the leak thread, i watched your karma mid stream once so i remember you.


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Posotoligist

Senior Member

03-15-2013

my whole point is to wait and see im really anxious to try her out with the new feels


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