Cho'gath Build Critique

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thegreatpeon

Junior Member

03-14-2013

Hey all you more experienced summoners out there,

I've been playing around with a new Cho'gath build recently and have found that it works pretty good mid or top and I'd like to get some input on it.

http://leaguecraft.com/lnk/7IC

The build concept is AP melee Cho with a focus on Vorpal Spike synergies.

I start the match off with a pair of Fairy Charms, 3 pots, and Rupture. This is to maintain sustain in the early laning phase and put pressure on the other champ to deny cs.

Focus is primarily on AP abilities at this point, maintain range from the other champ and last hit as often as possible. Use Spikes to push to their tower if you're comfortable with it when you're ready to head back for items.

On your first item run, pick up Chalice, Greaves, and Codex if you can afford it. The focus is still on AP at this point but the build is expensive so get with the cs. Stacks are very important as well because you don't pick up any health items until later.

The next items to pick up are the Grail and Nashor's Tooth. Then you have to take a look at the state of the game for the next choice:

If you've been doing well against your lane: Go for Liandry's Torment.

If you've been being harassed and don't have much cash: Pick up a belt and focus on getting Rylai's Scepter.

You should be in the Team Battle phase now so either the slow or the aoe dot will do well. Keep your stacks up and don't be afraid to wade into the fight. You're squishier than a tank Cho build but still have more hps than most champs. Use your spells for their utility and harassment, don't focus on using them for their damage. Your auto attack will do a ton of damage with the Spikes and if you're applying a slow to them every attack (Scepter) then they will be much easier to finish off.

Once you have the full build you should be auto attacking for about ~80 AD +~50 AP to your primary target and ~160 AP with your Spikes for a total of ~300 damage per hit to targets with an attack speed of ~1.6 attacks per second. Your Rupture still does ~600 damage and your scream does ~500 and your ult does a whopping ~900 true damage.

In addition to the base damage that you will be putting out, every attack applies a 4% of current health per second for 3 second dot and 15% slow to everyone who gets hit by Vorpal Spikes. On top of that, the primary target is getting up to 28 magic penetration which means even more damage.

Your items give you 20-40% CDR (can't remember if Tooth and Grail stack or not) so skill cooldowns aren't very long.

My results with this build have been mostly positive so far (level 22-24). I've had games (non-bot) where I've gone 13/2 and games where I've gone 4/9 but more on the positive k/d ratio.

I'd appreciate constructive input on this build. I understand that AP Cho and tank Cho are the current preferred builds but I believe that Cho'gath is one of the most versatile champions in this game and can perform well any role except, perhaps, ADC (tried it, still end up doing way more magic damage than physical).


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PentaAsian

Member

03-14-2013

Nashor's Tooth is a bad item on Cho' Gath because he doesn't need attack speed. He brings some utility with his knock up and silence while being the damage soaker teams need.

If you are focusing on AP then you need to build some tank items or most of the time you will run in do some damage then run out because you almost got bursted within 2-3 seconds.

Your math on the Vorpal Spikes are wrong. They don't have a 1:3 AP scaling ratio. It's 0.3. Which means that with your auto attacks you will be doing roughly half of the damage you thought you were doing.

Rupture has a 1:1 AP scaling ratio which means that instead of 600 damage you would be doing roughly 260 damage(going off of the 160 AP you had given earlier.)

Feral Scream has a 0.7:1 AP ratio which means that instead of the 500 damage you think you are dealing it's roughly 350 damage.

Your ult does 1000 true damage to monsters and minions only. Against champions it does 450 damage.

You are assuming that everyone gets magic penetration which is almost 100% wrong. Most of the time people run flat AP with some running flat magic penetration with some flat AP. With your numbers you are assuming that your enemy is running full magic penetration runes and all the penetration from mastery trees. (That is how I understand it from how you worded it.)

Whenever people build AP on Cho' Gath it's not full AP. They most likely have a tanky item or two on the during the mid to late game whether it be Abyssal Scepter which gives MR or Rod of Ages which gives health.

You are also assuming that all enemy champions run no magic resist runes which will never happen. Since the flat MR all champions get reduces all magic damage by roughly 20% both your numbers and my numbers are wrong because you are going off of unrealistic situations and I have to base my numbers off of that. On top of that with everyone running at least one full set of flat MR or MR per level runes those numbers can expect to be reduced by an additional 10 - 15% before items are considered.


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thegreatpeon

Junior Member

03-14-2013

I appreciate your input PentaAsian, but you have both missed the point of the build and the intent of the itemization. This is not tank Cho and this is not your typical AP caster Cho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PentaAsian View Post
Nashor's Tooth is a bad item on Cho' Gath because he doesn't need attack speed. He brings some utility with his knock up and silence while being the damage soaker teams need.

If you are focusing on AP then you need to build some tank items or most of the time you will run in do some damage then run out because you almost got bursted within 2-3 seconds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatpeon
The build concept is AP melee Cho with a focus on Vorpal Spike synergies.
Maybe I didn't emphasize this enough, but Vorpal Spikes are supposed to be the primary focus of the build. Attack speed, AP, and on spell hit utilities are an absolute must.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PentaAsian
Your math on the Vorpal Spikes are wrong. They don't have a 1:3 AP scaling ratio. It's 0.3. Which means that with your auto attacks you will be doing roughly half of the damage you thought you were doing.

Rupture has a 1:1 AP scaling ratio which means that instead of 600 damage you would be doing roughly 260 damage(going off of the 160 AP you had given earlier.)

Feral Scream has a 0.7:1 AP ratio which means that instead of the 500 damage you think you are dealing it's roughly 350 damage.

Your ult does 1000 true damage to monsters and minions only. Against champions it does 450 damage.
I should sumarize the final stats for Cho to make this simpler.
HP: 2710 (+900 from stacks = 3610)
MANA: 925
AD: 132
AS: 1.6
AP: 300
Magic Pen: 15 (+28)

From the LoL champion description of Cho'Gath: Vorpal Spikes - Basic attacks launch spikes that deal 20/35/50/65/80 (+0.3) magic damage. Spikes grow wider as Cho'gath levels.

80 + .3(300) = 80 + 90 = 170 damage per target hit by Spikes

Feral Scream - Silences enemies in a cone for 2/2.25/2.5/2.75/3 second(s) and deals 75/125/175/225/275 (+0.7) magic damage.

275 + .7(300) = 275 + 210 = 485

Rupture - Ruptures the ground at target location. Enemies caught in the rupture are launched into the air for 1 second, take 80/135/190/245/305 (+1) magic damage, and are slowed by 60% for 3 seconds.

305 + 1(300) = 605

Feast - Hungrily devours an enemy dealing 300/475/650 (+0.7) true damage to Champions, or 1000 (+0.7) true damage to minions.

650 + .7(300) = 650 + 210 = 860

*Damage disclaimer in last paragraph*

Quote:
Originally Posted by PentaAsian
You are assuming that everyone gets magic penetration which is almost 100% wrong. Most of the time people run flat AP with some running flat magic penetration with some flat AP. With your numbers you are assuming that your enemy is running full magic penetration runes and all the penetration from mastery trees. (That is how I understand it from how you worded it.)
I don't think I make any assumptions on the other champ's build or abilities. In either case their magic pen will have no effect on my damage output.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PentaAsian
Whenever people build AP on Cho' Gath it's not full AP. They most likely have a tanky item or two on the during the mid to late game whether it be Abyssal Scepter which gives MR or Rod of Ages which gives health.

You are also assuming that all enemy champions run no magic resist runes which will never happen. Since the flat MR all champions get reduces all magic damage by roughly 20% both your numbers and my numbers are wrong because you are going off of unrealistic situations and I have to base my numbers off of that. On top of that with everyone running at least one full set of flat MR or MR per level runes those numbers can expect to be reduced by an additional 10 - 15% before items are considered.
I assume no MR on the opposing champion because I can't estimate how much they might have. I can only give the raw data of my damage output and then realize that it is an absolute best case scenario. I know that most champions I go up against will have some kind of armor/MR to mitigate a portion of my damage.

I appreciate the comment and would like to iterate that this is not caster Cho or Tanky Cho, this is melee damage Cho.


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Geminex

Senior Member

03-14-2013

The problem with building Cho to be a bruiser is that, unlike many other bruisers, he lacks a gapcloser/initiator. Rupture can lock enemies in place for a decent amount of time if you manage to hit it, but even if you do hit an offensive rupture, you'll still have to close the range before you can start auto-attacking. Having to close that range will expose you to enemy champions pretty heavily, and, while you have a significant healthpool, you aren't building many defenses to supplement that health pool, which makes you vulnerable in a teamfight scenario.

And when you do close that range and start applying your damage, you're not much stronger than a mage/tank cho would be, in return for being much more vulnerable. I've always felt that the majority of Cho's threat came from his CC and Burst.

Ultimately, when you compare this build to a more typical tank/mage cho, you sacrifice some of the best tankiness in the game, in return for some extra threat from your AAs. Not worth it.


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Directw

Senior Member

03-15-2013

So, you want to try dps on-hit Cho. In this case, you will need so sustain.

Like Penta said, you will be an easy and VERY BIG target during team fight. Without sustain, you won't last long enough to do significant damage. I used to include gunblade + guinsoo when I build on-hit Cho. Also, you probably want switch malady to wit's end so you have more survivability.

This is the my on-hit cho build back at season 2: Mercury's Treads + wit's end + gunblade + guinsoo + ROA + FH. However, this build is still not fully tested yet. I did not have the chance to fully test the build.

One last thing, no matter what kind of Cho you want to try, some defensive items through out the game are crucial, especially Cho


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

03-15-2013

This approach just doesn't work. A 0.3 AP ratio is simply not worth building around. Its about equivalent to a 0.5 AD ratio from a cost perspective. Clearly this would be terrible since autoattacks have 1.0 AD ratio.
Even with spellblade and malady boosting to .45 AP ratio, it still sucks.

It is nice that AP also boosts his skills significantly, but all his Attack Speed would be a dead stat for the rest of his spells.

He gets some nice free health but wouldnt be tanky enough to survive in melee with an AP centric build. As stated, he has no good way to get into melee range. If focused, he will fall apart before he even gets within melee range.
Best case scenario, he plays like an AP caster cho with a lot of useless Attack Speed hanging around most of the time, then occasionally gets to move into melee and get some autoattacks in after someone else engages.


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Sephïroth

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Senior Member

03-15-2013

Attack speed Cho works fine, but you have to understand what makes attack speed work with him. You need to build pretty tanky before you get attack speed. I would buy at least an Aegis or Bulwark, then maybe buy a Malady. Then I would get something situational like a Randuin's or a Abyssal Scepter. Then you could get your Nashor's Tooth. Last item I would definitely build some more tankyness.

Attack speed Cho is hard to work in team fights because he has no stickyness. Maybe if you were to build a Frozen Mallet it might work better, but that's another item slot gone.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

03-15-2013

Maybe we should redefine "works". ANYTHING will work. AD Annie works. It just doesn't work very well. People tend to get stuck on 1 thing about a champ and then try to build around it. Like Annie's OP 625 range! Plus she has AOE stun, self-shield. Uber ADC rite? No... because her AS base and AS gain sucks bad. She also has no AD/AS steroid, nor any AD scaling skills.


To make AS Cho work you have to get:
* Lots of Attack Speed obviously.
* Tons of AP to get the massive 0.3 AP ratio. /sarcasm
* Tankiness to be able to survive in melee.
* Ideally some kind of speed boost. Its hard enuf to close just to Feast someone, let alone beat on them for a while.
* Some kind of snare so you can keep beating on them...i.e. Triforce, frozen mallet, Rylais.

That's just too much stuff needed to perform decently, vs most champs that tend to get 1 or 2 of these. ADC gets lots of AD then AS/crit. APs get lots of AP, and some CDR maybe.

----------
By way of comparison Kayle has similar base dmg, a 40% AP ratio, does splash damage, GAINS RANGE (525). She also has built in movespeed booster, and ultimate survivability booster.

She is quite a bit better than Cho on the AP/AS front. Even then, people still play her as mostly AP or mostly AD.

If you wanna play AS/AP Cho that is just fine and dandy. But realize it is suboptimal and a 'fun' build and not really competitive.


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Lethadind

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Warrrrax summarized it perfectly. You can make almost any build work, and while you're leveling up, and just for ****s and giggles, sure go for it. If for no other reason than it surprises your enemy and it's fun to watch them **** their pants as this Cho'Gath is doing, like, 400 damage per auto-attack to them.

On a competitive end people tend to know how to counter things like this quite often, so it won't surprise them nearly as much. When they aren't surprised, you lose the only advantage you had. AP Cho does respectable teamfight damage with his spikes if he can grab everyone and position just right to hit them with his spikes continuously (it's like 200ish damage to each champion per auto-attack), but the problem is that may happen once every three games. Cho is scary because his spikes make him do deceptively high amounts of sustained damage in a duel, with an ult that often people don't think about until they drop 600+ health and are like "Oh. Yeah. Feast. ****." In teamfights his utility comes from an AoE silence + knockup, and still with an ult that allows him to easily chomp a carry in half. Once you stray from his kit and focus on one ability, you essentially ignore his kit and what he was designed to do.

AP Cho focuses on the whole kit, and is therefore viable, if somewhat subpar to Tank Cho, though that's a matter of opinion.

AS Cho focuses on Q as a means of gap closing, W for some random AoE damage, and then hoping you can make use of the attack speed as they're running away. It's not what his kit was designed to do. Honestly the only time I get attack speed on a melee-based champion is when I situationally need to drop towers by split pushing or backdooring. Diana is a great example of someone who works really well with attack speed, but only for towers - towers don't move anywhere, champions do, so unless you have a way of rooting them in place to make the attack speed worth it (or you can attack them multiple times before they get away, e.g. a ranged carry) it gets wasted.


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Jonheath291

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Rylai's
Boots of Swiftness
Abyssal Scepter
Frozen Heart
Rabadon's Deathcap
Warmog


That is my typical build for cho. Sometimes I take Randuin's over Frozen Heart, but it gives me damage, resistance, and health.


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