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Udyr Top

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Cupiter

Senior Member

03-14-2013

Udyr is perhaps one of the tankiest champions you can get top lane while still dealing good damage. A low cooldown shield that restores hp and mana as you attack is a good thing to have and makes a large difference in early game trades. I've been having good luck with him in ranked, especially vs Irelia, but I'm not sure whether or not he's good. I usually pick him if the enemy top is a melee range champion, not Garen, and we have a champion who can engage with a gap closer. But people seem to really hate having an Udyr top on their team. Why?


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Madraac

Senior Member

03-14-2013

His late game is average at best... especially in teamfights. His shield won't absorb enough damage to make him survive an initiation, and his other forms do not deal enough damage to take out a champion. Where he excels nowadays imo is laning. He still has an incredibly fast jungle clear, so can be good for counter jungling as well, but with no real initiation, you have to rely on the other team being out of position.

The good news is that his turtle stance can let you trade all day long with a melee champ and not worry to much. If you are playing with a J4 / Jax / Xin jungle, you can make quick work of top lane, as they all have slows/stuns that will let you apply and re-apply your bear stun. If you are with a Skarn or Noc, not so much unless they can quickly close the gap to get a slow or fear off.

So basically, if you can get out in front by 2+ levels and snowball for your team, you will do well, but any champ that does that can have the same effect. I wish I could be more positive as I love Udyr, but he is just average at end game 90% of the time. The good news is that being average does allow for him to be somewhat forgiving, and still fun.


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Cupiter

Senior Member

03-14-2013

Quote:
Madraac:
His late game is average at best... especially in teamfights. His shield won't absorb enough damage to make him survive an initiation, and his other forms do not deal enough damage to take out a champion. Where he excels nowadays imo is laning. He still has an incredibly fast jungle clear, so can be good for counter jungling as well, but with no real initiation, you have to rely on the other team being out of position.

The good news is that his turtle stance can let you trade all day long with a melee champ and not worry to much. If you are playing with a J4 / Jax / Xin jungle, you can make quick work of top lane, as they all have slows/stuns that will let you apply and re-apply your bear stun. If you are with a Skarn or Noc, not so much unless they can quickly close the gap to get a slow or fear off.

So basically, if you can get out in front by 2+ levels and snowball for your team, you will do well, but any champ that does that can have the same effect. I wish I could be more positive as I love Udyr, but he is just average at end game 90% of the time. The good news is that being average does allow for him to be somewhat forgiving, and still fun.

Late game, I build defensive items and Blade of the Ruined King and just peel for my ADC.


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Steal Yr Face

Junior Member

03-14-2013

I think Udyr's weakness for laning is his (relatively) weak CC and huge weakness to kiting. He also doesn't "snowball" as well as other top picks: his skills don't scale incredibly well with more AP or AD, and even fed early he rarely ends up dominating mid to late game, just because he lacks any hugely strong killing skills. Tiger stance is his best bet, but he DoT isn't anywhere near as strong as other champs (GP, Darius, Teemo, whatever) he may have to lane against.

He has one gap closer skill, and that is on a 6 second CD and not a particularly great skill for putting points into compared to everything else. He clears waves quickly, just struggles in dealing with strong CC/kiting champions in laning phase. Against melee champs, he can usually do 1v1 pretty well, just will struggle if they can get away from him and still deal damage (DoTs, faster speed skills, etc).

He does better in jungle/counterjungle because of the usually smaller area fights: he's able to close the gap, or reliably enter bush to avoid kiting.

He can be very useful late game: throwing up a shield and running in to drop some quick stuns and then hitting Randuin's can be useful: he just needs to build with an eye for tanking/hp. Late game he's extremely useful as a pusher: tiger stance + phoenix stance can absolutely decimate turrets while taking out waves at the same time, and his shield lets him take a hit or two from a turret.


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Xocolatl

Recruiter

03-15-2013

First thing about Udyr--if you use Tiger/Bear dance, he deals good damage. If you use Tiger/Phoenix dance..holy craps. Yes, he hits hard, VERY hard.
Phoenix adds 27AD, which translates to an extra 40-ish damage on that first tiger hit, on top of the 200AoE damage aura from Phoenix. So that's an extra 250 magic damage per dance cycle. Most people just end up going 5 Bear, while in truth (I do NOT claim credit for being the first to realize this), Bear 3 and Bear5 has marginal difference. So it would be much smarter to go 5Phoenix anyway.


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missou

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Steal Yr Face:
I think Udyr's weakness for laning is his (relatively) weak CC and huge weakness to kiting. He also doesn't "snowball" as well as other top picks: his skills don't scale incredibly well with more AP or AD, and even fed early he rarely ends up dominating mid to late game, just because he lacks any hugely strong killing skills. Tiger stance is his best bet, but he DoT isn't anywhere near as strong as other champs (GP, Darius, Teemo, whatever) he may have to lane against.

He has one gap closer skill, and that is on a 6 second CD and not a particularly great skill for putting points into compared to everything else. He clears waves quickly, just struggles in dealing with strong CC/kiting champions in laning phase. Against melee champs, he can usually do 1v1 pretty well, just will struggle if they can get away from him and still deal damage (DoTs, faster speed skills, etc).

He does better in jungle/counterjungle because of the usually smaller area fights: he's able to close the gap, or reliably enter bush to avoid kiting.

He can be very useful late game: throwing up a shield and running in to drop some quick stuns and then hitting Randuin's can be useful: he just needs to build with an eye for tanking/hp. Late game he's extremely useful as a pusher: tiger stance + phoenix stance can absolutely decimate turrets while taking out waves at the same time, and his shield lets him take a hit or two from a turret.


I strongly disagree with much of what you've just stated.

It's true that Udyr is weak to kiting and that he lacks CC, but I don't see these as weaknesses. His tiger proc damage is so high that in lane he outdamages every bruiser in the game in short engages. Sitting in bear stance and landing an auto on an enemy means you can immediately tiger>auto>back off + turtle for over 300 free damage per cycle. Udyr's lack of a blink is what keeps him from being completely overpowered. Although this leaves him unable to effectively kill a ranged opponent in lane without jungler help, I don't consider this a weakness by any means, since maxing turtle allows Udyr to ignore the poke of the majority of ranged champions and to play a farm lane. The only top lane ranged champions that can consistently outdamaged Udyr's shield past level 7, without having snowballed ahead in the first few levels, would be Teemo and possibly Elise. Udyr can sit and completely ignore harrass from other common ranged top lane champions like Vladimir.

Tiger's AD scaling is insane....150% base AD scaling on a 6 second base CD with a 40% persistent AS boost on top of a 5 second additional 35% AS boost? Not to mention the damage output is hybrid, with his physical damage autos and magic damage procs. How exactly does he not scale well with AD?

Udyr does fall off lategame, but I completely disagree that he doesn't snowball hard. In midgame, based on map threat, not just kill potential, I think a fed Udyr is the single scariest top laner in the game. You cannot simply ignore the fact that even an 0/0/0 Udyr with reasonable cs by 20 minutes can solo baron, or that a 2 or 3 kill Udyr with 100+ cs and red or blue can solo baron as soon as it spawns, at 15 minutes. Sure he might not have as much kill potential as someone like Darius, but the threat of losing baron at any point past 15 minutes into the game if Udyr has not been shut down in lane? That's pretty stupidly scary, considering only a handful of champions actually counter him in lane hard enough to consistently stop him from farming, and that top lane Udyr is almost never counterpicked in ranked, considering everyone expects him to jungle.
Double Dorans, Wriggles, Spirit of the Lizard Elder, and red or blue. That's all Udyr needs to solo baron before 20 minutes. Less than 5k worth of items. If that craptarded level snowball, I don't know what is.

Udyr hardly fits at all in the current jungle, and it shows in how seldom he is picked now compared to before...his lack of a reliable gap closer makes his non-flash ganks pretty lacking at all stages of the game. IMHO he's currently much stronger as a niche top laner than a jungler. The point of picking him is to end the game before it reaches lategame, where he admittedly turns kind of meh, and this is something he excels at.


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missou

Senior Member

03-15-2013

If I had to hazard a guess at why your teams don't like you playing top lane Udyr, it'd have to be your MMR. Most players at the bottom of Silver / top of Bronze have never seen Udyr in the top lane, and probably rarely see him in the jungle either. From my experience with top lane Udyr, the higher up the ladder you go, the more receptive people tend to become. At the top of silver / bottom of gold I would get threatened with reports in queue for picking top lane Udyr. Traveling up through gold and into plat. a lot more players recognize that Udyr is actually a huge threat and are excited about the pick.


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