Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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George0fDaJungle

Senior Member

03-13-2013

PLEASE! Please, pick WoW Dungeon Finder. It would be so easy to just have queues for 5 different positions. No more fighting, no disagreement. This would do so much to prevent toxicity in select poisoning a game before it begins. As Lyte said, toxicity in select is almost never a player's fault, it is an automatic result necessitated by the current champ select system. Just as important as removing toxicity, players would get to play what they want, every game.

There is no downside. Here are the possible objections and their answers:

1: Long queue times.

Answer: Only for the roles highest in demand. Picking support would result in an insta-game with zero wait time, and adc and jungle would almost certainly have short queues, compared to mid and top. If everyone wants to play mid, then it is right and proper there be a wait time for that.

2: It enforces the meta.

Answer: No it doesn't. Because all you sign up for is "top lane" or "mid" or "jungle". You could play any kind of champion you want in these positions. The only exception might need to be made for bot lane, where players should probably have to sign up for "adc" and "support". Since these are the roles found in bot lane 99.9% of the time, I think this does not 'enforce' anything, but takes into account reality. In any case, players who have signed up for adc and support could always talk to their team and agree to run double bruisers, or whatever else. Lane swapping is a team affair, and could obviously be done as well, with team consent. All the queue selection does is make it clear you are positioned in one lane, that no one else can 'call' or claim is theirs without a team discussion.

The game would improve so much with this change. Let people queue for a lane of their choice, please.

This would have to be added to report options: "Griefing: refusing to play in assigned lane."

Note: As some people have mentioned, the queue must be for lane, and not for role (aka "healer", as Lyte put it). There are too many champions that can be used in too many lanes, to pigeonhole a lane to one type of champion. For instance, having someone queue as "AP caster" would be totally incorrect, since not every team even uses this type of champion. But every team does assign someone to mid lane, someone top, etc. This is true of every pro team in the world, and certainly of every team in solo queue.


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BeelzeBuff

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
It's a pretty drastic shift to how people currently think about the game, but it is a reflection of how the game mechanics influence behavior. Freelancer is a pretty dope name for a support However, I'm not sure how much people would accept a Freelancer who is rolling around as a double-jungle gold-absorber. It gets back to the issue of whatever you do, the team has to be ok with it too. Since it's not only about your choice, it's about the four other player's desires and expectations.
If the 5 players can't agree on what each person will do, there's always dodging. Or vote-kick, if you implement it.

The ways it could play out:

1. Other playstyles become more popular (double bruiser, double jungle) and the "Freelancer" spot becomes an incredibly varied queue.

2. The community as a whole rejects anything but a support, and its support or die. People that queue know this, and they pick "Freelancer" knowing they'll support. Same as people picking "Solo lane #2" will most likely pick an AP caster.


The worst case scenario is things stay the same as they are now, only with no role tension in the queues.

(Yes, some people may still specialize in double jungle/roaming/double bruiser etc. And they will still be able to do it the same way people do odd stuff now. Duo queues or very nice and forgiving teammates.)


just reposting this for visibility for Davin. Things get lost in this thread so easily. This should be split into 2 threads. (Prisoner's Island and Queues)


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GridironGrace

Junior Member

03-13-2013

my client freeze's alot during champ select, not sure why, mostly cause im sitting there waiting on bans/picks and it just dont register.. ive been random'd a few times due to that. and i know several others have as well ive read alot of people describing the same things that happen to me. so tahts an issue.

i think that if you could maybe order your roles by preference.. say your best top, and can mid, but your bad a jungling so you could just order (top,mid,adc,support,jungle)

or.. to make it so everyone doesnt set support last.. just have an option in search criteria where you can say you are worst at 'jungling' and it wont put you on a team where u could be put jungling..

and just dont even make support an option, cause honestly, everyone should have 1-2 support champs that they can atleast do decent with, and everyone should support time to time in q as well. tho alot of people dont take the role as seriously as others.

another idea would be to have a series of questions that ask what type of player you are, like in other games ive playd.. are you a team player? are you talkative or do you just play and ping? can you play every role, or are you only good at a few.

group ppl with like answers together and you may get a bit better experience, atleast that way, you will get like minded people.

could even have a question that says "do you take the kill, or the turret"
which is better dragon or a turret?

a series of questions could be used each week until you got a good mix of questions to better match us in our tier's. and also add in some of the honor intuitive to the mix

there will always be some issue with any way you go about matching people, but the idea should be to find what best helps the majority, and the only way to do that is thru some type of survey.

one last idea is to give ppl 1 free dodge per 24 hours, like a win of the day, where they feel like this is a toxic room and its a hopeless cause, we could use that, with a msg box to say why, and maybe the name of the person(s) that caused us to use the dodge.

a voting system to kick a toxic player would be ok, however, you would probably wanna monitor the pre-game chat so that people dont abuse it, and allow the person that got voted to be kicked to argue the kick?

would it be possible to have like some "good gaming police" where a team could request like a mod to come in and review a pregame situation like a pick call or "trolling" threat.??

oh and edit one more time for this.. if you do the "pick a role q", make sure you add the role "fill", for ppl that dont care what role they play


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Ektomorf

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeelzeBuff View Post
My thoughts on Prisoner's Island:

Prisoner's Island only works if the people better themselves.

SO

replace the "Honor" button with a "Parole" button for people in Prisoner's Island. Each player gets to use one after each game. You cannot give one to yourself. After a certain number of these (they would have a decay time in games played, so you can't just accumulate random ones over time), you are "Paroled," and allowed back on Parole. After a period of time on the regular servers with no incidents, you are considered "Reformed," and all negative effects are removed from your account.

thoughts?
Wouldn't work, it would be like honour when it was first released.
People just asking for it and giving it regardless of whether they deserved it or not.


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Ðezie

Junior Member

03-13-2013

Vote #2
Always thought of having a Dungeon Finder like WoW in LoL would be nice, but there might be drawbacks of having really long queue times if you pick certain roles.


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Shadowmere

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
What if people could switch their position in champ select similar to switching champions?
THIS

Seriously, it won't solve most of the problems you are talking about, but it will solve the "swap is possible, but lol you don't have the other guys champion, so try and do a 3-4 way swap.... no time for that AAARGH"

Seriously, make this happen PLEASE!

Look at every possible way to implement this, it doesn't have to be switching players around. Oher alternatives exist such as:

In champ select, you first decide for WHO (player) you pick, and then get him a champion, which he has to agree on (he must confirm before the game locks the champion in).
This will enable 100% easy swaps, preventing problems from not having a specific champion or not being in the right place in queue.

For the pick order problem, I'd say prisoner island is the best way to go imo.


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RacoonHail

Member

03-13-2013

Random thought, what if the surrender counter was lowered to 15 minutes in? That might make being stuck with someone wishing to do the team harm (revive/smite yi to use a red example) a little more tolerable. And who knows, you might be winning by then.


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Goth Skunk

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Why would Prisoner's Island be mainly Bronze players? Players of all skill levels can have toxic behaviors.
There seems to be this general mentality in GD that Bronze players are all toxic. A common misconception not supported by facts.


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Aithòs

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
We want to take some time today to talk about Champion Select.

1) What are the problems?
2) What are some potential solutions?

The player behavior team has been running research on Champ Select and we agree that Champ Select is currently not a great environment and does not set teams up for success. Weve all experienced Champ Selects that have erupted in arguments and had that sinking feeling that the game is lost before it even started. In saying this, there are plenty of Champ Select lobbies that are awesome and being positive and cooperative in every lobby does help; however, being positive by itself will not solve the problems in Champ Select and we dont expect it to.

Solving player behavior problems in League of Legends requires collaboration between us and players and we havent done our part in Champ Select yet. As you can imagine, the problems (and any potential solutions) are complicated.

Something were seeing in our research is the influence of context.

But you know what?

This player's behavior isnt toxic. Hes just like any one of us--we all have our bad days.

---

Lets break down this scenario into some of the problems that wed like to solve in Champ Select:

1) Real-Life Context | This scenario really illustrates how context outside the game can influence behavior inside the game. Traditionally, game studios dont design or solve for context. Or can they?

2) In-Game Context | This scenario illustrates the conflict between Pick Order and Call Order. When there are literally no guidelines, at best, half of the players believe in Pick Order and half believe in Call Orderweve created a situation where conflicts are expected rather than rare.

3) Time Pressure | From psychology, we know that time pressure sometimes twists context in hostile ways. Players in Champ Select are effectively trying to negotiate with each other over individual goals (i.e, what role I want to play this game) that overlap with team goals (i.e, given this set of teammates, whats the best strategy for us to win?). Studies suggest that throwing time pressure in there is like adding fuel to the firethe end result is more disagreements and lower quality of negotiations.

4) Cognitive Biases | Hopefully davin will talk more about this, but people show cognitive bias in many ways. For example, many of us enter Champ Select thinking we are the best at whatever role we want to playthis is statistically impossible; however, theres no reason to trust any of the strangers in the lobby. This really isnt the players fault, its simply being human.

These are some major problems with Champ Select that weve identified in our research. So whats next? A lot of players have suggested the following:

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like Healer and DPS and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoners Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?
I wrote a big post about two weeks ago addressing several things I see in the community. I am glad that someone is addressing the issues that are important to the community and I hope you will take the time to look over what I have written. I spent a great deal of time in making it and it is far to long to post here but I will give you a quick and dirty and leave the link in place so that others can go read it at their leisure. (the champion select part is at the end, it is rather long...you have been warned)

In a nutshell: None of your three proposed/commonly discussed options are ultimately viable.

1) Vote kick has way too much potential for abuse and in ranked especially could potentially cost people league points. People don't always pay attention and will often vote in favor of something without even knowing who is being kicked or why. It is a common complaint with the tribunal, but the tribunal at least requires a lot of reports to get there, a vote kick could be instituted by anyone.

2) WoW style dungeon finder if implemented the same way is a bad idea because the queue time will skyrocket. The problem with WoW is that the vast majority of the population play DPS classes/specs, LoL has a similar problem in that most people enjoy mid/top. If you give people a single role selection everyone will select the same role and those people will wait a lot longer. I think this is the best of the three options but needs some tweaking (which is what my post is about).

3) Prisoner Island....doesn't solve the problem at all. People will still be toxic, the habitually toxic will still create smurfs and bother people until they end up back on prisoner island. This idea just seems to be addressing the symptom and not the cause.

My Thoughts:

You need to have a way prior to queue to indicate what you want to play. The fact is that most of the problem with champion select and toxicity that comes from it is the disagreement about who goes where. The WoW queue is a way to do this, just the wrong way in my opinion.

I would instead create a preference selection. Prior to queue you select (at least) three roles in the order you wish to play them. The system will then attempt (like with MMR) to match you with 4 people who want to play the other roles. Failing that it will move down your preference list until it finds you a game with suitable teammates. Once you have entered champion select it will show you what you have been assigned (to avoid people queue dropping of their 2nd/3rd roles) and will show you what your teammates are.

Because each person indicates multiple roles the queue times would be much more efficient and there would be plenty of time in champion select minus the arguments to discuss odd strategies or champion selections. I have a lot more to say but I'll wrap this up and if people want to take a look at my post I would greatly appreciate it.

My Post: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3169771


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Nobleish

Junior Member

03-13-2013

Without reading everything, here's what I would try:

Make a pre-champ-select lobby. You get matchmade per usual and end up in this pre-lobby. It could look like the one we use for premades right now, with a simple chat box, or you could have one button for each role + "unorthodox". Players get infinite time in this lobby. They are supposed to agree on roles here, maybe tell each other about preferrable champs and hated champs. If there are buttons, they can click the ones they want (maybe even before entering queue), and look at what other people want, as a help to speed things up I guess. Maybe they could also vote for/setup pick order in champ select. There may be a team captain and/or a 1 to 5 rank-order to help determine who wins a small dispute. They also get 3 main buttons in this lobby: "Leave", "Stay", "Start Game". Buttons #2 and #3 are also "tickable", like the role preference ones.
*"Leave" means to leave these players and look for other ones to be paired with; you are not happy with your team. No penalty is acquired.
*"Stay" means that if someone leaves, you will be matched together with the other ones in the pre-lobby who also ticked "stay".
*If everybody ticks "start game", they enter queue to get into champ select.

Pros:
People can easily dodge toxic players without penalties. Unless they hide. Would they?
You can have very high penalties for dodging in champ select.
You don't have to ban, communicate and worry about team success under time restraints.
People playing mid or feed (50% of the playerbase? ;p) can quickly skip through several teams to get what they want? Or will they get stuck in leave mode?

Cons:
May be difficult for the matchmaker to balance teams, since they are made seperately from each other rather than made to face each other.
May create longer pregame sessions.

I'm tired. Is this a terrible idea?