Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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Hydrochoerus

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Most arguments end start by someone calling a role and a higher pick saying it goes pick order and locks in that role. Sometimes this happens regardless of the higher person actually wants to play that role.


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PhantomBanana

Senior Member

03-13-2013

With Regards to the three possible Solutions listed:

1. Vote Kick
Pros: Allows players to remove uncooperative or toxic summoners from Champ Select, WITHOUT one of the cooperative players being forced to dodge and incur a dodge penalty OR being forced to play out an entire match with the toxic player.
Cons: Opens up limited possibilities for abuse, potentially kicking people with bad stats or unpopular/unconventional champ picks.
Verdict: YES.

Given that this feature would be for SOLO/DUO queue, and that this feature would require a unanimous vote from 4 players, I believe that abuse could be greatly limited. Given the countless instances of one toxic player ruining champ select and an otherwise solid team comp (from experience) I think that this feature would have a very positive effect on the champ select experience. Negative effects and abuse can be avoided by limiting the consequences to the kicked player. A kicked player is removed from Champ Select and must re-queue, but incurs no time penalty and no LP penalty. Consequently, kicked players don't incur any permanent punishment (limiting collateral damage from unjustified kicks). The player has an immediate opportunity to re-queue, change their attitude, and successfully enter another match. However, they also know that if they continue to be toxic/uncooperative, they will continue to be kicked.

2. WoW Dungeon Finder
Pros: Allows ALL summoners to successfully queue for a particular role or champion class/archetype that they enjoy or are competent at playing. Also helps to automate team composition, reducing the burden of team organization on the players within the champion select lobby.
Cons: Would likely increase queue times, especially for popular roles. (However, would also help to reward players playing less popular roles, such as support, with lower queue times). Would likely require an enforcement of a particular team composition framework or meta-game. Would possibly create a constraint on innovative or nontraditional team compositions or champion selections.
Verdict: YES.

Given that this feature would be for SOLO/DUO queue specifically, I believe that Pros outweigh the Cons significantly. I believe many summoners ( or at least myself) would gladly accept slightly longer queue times (which are pretty darn fast at the moment for most MRRs) if they were guaranteed not only that they could play their favorite role, but that they would be matched with a full team that is more willing to cooperate having also been selected for their preferred role. Additionally, this would reward summoners who queue for the least popular roles be providing lowered queue times to for those positions. As for the enforcement of a predefined team framework or meta-game, I believe this is acceptable given the nature and purpose of solo queue. I believe that solo queue (much like PUGs from WoW or other MMOs) are for players who want to dive in quickly, play a roll they know and love and refine their skills, within a predefined framework. Within the current solo queue environment, the solo top/ solo mid/ jungle/ ADC / Support meta-game is closely followed the vast majority of the time, given that these are match-made teams and there is limited time to organize and communicate. The "Dungeon Finder" would simply support players by making this process more automated. Players who wish to significantly deviate from the meta-game with innovative or non traditional team comps with still have the option to do so in Premade Teams (which is where those occur anyway).

3.Prisoner Island
Pros: Separates toxic or uncooperative summoners from those who follow the summoners code. Potentially improves the experience of well behaved summoners.
Cons: Would likely create a vicious cycle, in which toxic summoners become increasingly toxic when exposed to other very toxic players. It would also not be easy to escape from such a terrible place, as it would be difficult to detect summoners who are attempting to reform their behavior or become positive influences, as toxic players are unlikely to use feature such as Honor.
Verdict: NO.

I'm not a fan of this idea. The tribunal already exists to deal with toxic players and punish them fairly. The current focus should be on creating features (like those listed above) that improve ALL player interactions and reduce the source and cause of toxic behavior (frustration, pressure, limitations, etc) Players who continue to be toxic will be dealt with by the Tribunal. Creating a figurative "hell" of toxic players does not seem like a good solution for lasting behavior improvement.


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Rockman

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Could you add a pregame lobby before the timer starts on a game? That way you could give people time to sort out what they want to pick, team strats, etc.


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INyuuI

Senior Member

03-13-2013

reserved


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Navn

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Vote kick system is probably the best. It's pretty hard to find a lobby of 5, where 4 of them just particularly hate on one person for no reason. I mean, if the whole lobby just wants to punt 1 guy off the team, that's probably the best choice. Also, this could include track records on the person that was punted (and possibly throw them into the tribunal to be judged sooner)?


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Twissa

Member

03-13-2013

Please put a time before they can lock in in normal. I just HATE instalocks...if the times passes and he still locks in teemo well, ****, but at least we had time to talk to the dude.


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AnonTwo

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

[This probably goes under time pressure]

I believe there's not enough pre-information, and not enough time to communicate to get roles in place sometimes.

For example, sometimes people want to pick an ADC, but the problem is they then have to go "do you have this... do you have that"...and sometimes the timer runs out before they know if that person can trade with them, and ultimately pick high and let themselves get counterpicked.

Other times you just have an oddball who takes too long to talk, and noone has a clue what he really wants to do. Or you'll all be conversing and noone can figure out who wants to be in what lane.

say someone says "mid top" someone say "top adc" someone says "support top"...well...how long is it going to take for us to figure out where the two unknowns go, so we can decide who actually gets top lane? And generally we want to pick the support early as it's harder to counterpick.

Thoughts: Is there a way to have information like...a note as to what a person can do beforehand, so people can sort this out with less talk? It feels like one particular room for error in a team is there will never be time to sort out the picks for certain teams, especially given there's generally a tier in priority for picks (my league it's generally: Support Jungle ADC top/mid) meaning some people will need to either sort out another person's pick fast, or risk counterpick.


EDIT: My fault for not reading the whole thing...well...

1. The problem with vote kick is that people may try to kick for even the slighest "error in judgement" they percieve, and generally people will agree because they'd rather not group with someone than risk a hostile environment. Queue times would be horrendous

2. This one enforces the meta, and i believe would need some way to not have to do it all the time. It would also need a way to be changed in case the meta ever died. (which could happen)

3. I personally can't see a problem with this, aside from the poor guy who somehow gets thrown into prisoner isle by accident (given the low chance of error...it could still happen). Positive enviroments might still get false reports though


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alexmf2

Senior Member

03-13-2013

What about giving IP rewards based on the popularity of each role for suggestion #2? For example, queuing up for Support would give a little bit (very little - just enough to encourage more people to do it) more IP than queuing up for Top.


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Burgleburgle

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Member

03-13-2013

This has been suggested before, but: Most hostility in champ select is based on which roles you want to play.

Why not add a Preference queue, along with a "How strong is your preference?" slider, and have the game auto-assign roles?

For example, you could say: Mid > Top > ADC > Jungle > Support, Preference of MAXIMUM

Maximum preference would mean your wait time would be abnormally long if you wanted a top role, but you'd be very likely to get that role. There's a clear tradeoff for the user in terms of his own flexibility versus his desire to get a game.

By the time you get in game, you have a given role. Failing to perform that role is tantamount to trolling.

This is tricky to code, and hurts people who want to do crazy non-meta stuff. But if you want to do crazy non-meta stuff, wouldn't hurt to duo queue or 5-queue with friends.

Simple solution that would get rid of most of the conflicts.

So I'm pretty heavily in favor of option 2.

Option 3, I'm starting to grow to like. The truth is, there are some people who like to play in a more toxic environment where verbal abuse is the norm. It might be useful for those people to play against eachother.

However, it presents a few problems - do you have parallel ladders? What if you want to duo queue with a non-toxic player? And, despite that, there still is almost nobody who actively wants to team with trolls/AFKers/etc. Not even the ragers/flamers. So I'm not sure how this is terribly different than banning them.

-Burgle


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Solari Eclipse

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

The general belief of pick order is based on MMR deciding the list order, correct? With some exceptions for premade queuing? What if that was gotten rid of?

Can we also get rid of locking in across all modes, and maybe requiring 10-15 seconds before selecting a champ in blind?

Edit: Maybe not preference queues, but people can select a preference from the main menu while making. And it contains "None", "top", "mid", "support", "adc", "jungle", etc and this displays in parenthesis next to your name in select as well as Chat.

Re-edit: posted screenshot showing possible location of dropdown box. But this wouldn't change any queues or queue types, just displaying some of this "pre-information" and eliminate role calling hopefully. Though to completely remove it you may need to not display preference like "SummonerName (Jungle)" in chat. I can see a practice of people just hitting space + enter to call roles like that.