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Let's talk about Champ Select

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Zuggy

Recruiter

03-18-2013

Quote:
Lyte:

2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team


i would like to have a player finder for roles in rank que but maybe put instead of one role have to choose 3 or 2 roles so Ques are not that long to pair up for ranked games and maybe have it also in normal draft mode too so people can get used to it but i still feel they should keep the rank system now so that Summoners have a choice to decide what que they want to go into.

also a aram que would be pretty nice to with a quit option instead of a having to exit and not have to wait because you dodge an aram que


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Brodhi

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
rangerike1363:
^This. I don't know how many times I have called something and then had the person who "stole" my pick because they were "higher" and then proceed to fail. I've also been last pick and choose the mage, adc, etc. then dominate the enemy who was a "higher" pick on the enemy team. Pick order is not indicative of skill and as he said, there is NO statistical data to support it. I've also had times where someone who called a lane lower than me first does worse, but I've generally found that people who call their lanes instead of going by pick order are: a) more willing to give up their position if someone asks nicely and pleads their case well, b) overall better to play with, and c) better team players overall. Players who think "I am higher than you in pick order therefore am better than you" are the worst to play with because they really aren't a team player.

Honestly, I wish call order was put in the summoners code along with willingness to fill. It's better to have multiple people call out the same position and hash it out in chat over the higher pick just autolocking the position they want with no regard for what their teammates want to play.


Oh god if Call Order was in the Summoner's Code I would literally cry. Majority of Champ Select lobbies I have been in that have began toxic are because 2 people "called" the same position and then immediately argued with each other the entire lobby which ends with both of them choosing an AP and going double mid, basically screwing us.

No, Pick Order is way better than Call Order. And as I said before, it isn't the other 4 players responsibility to let you play whatever you want just because you "claim" to be good at something while being at a lower MMR, it is your responsibility to acknowledge people who are better than you at this game and respect their choices--good or not.


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EvolutionSe7en

Member

03-18-2013

Here is my feedback on the 3 ideas (Please excuse me if some of these points were already made in the previous 270+ pages)

(1) The vote-kick option would work, but how would the 5th be filled? If they were to be able to pick up a 5th player right away from whomever is in queue, giving both teams (for example) 10 seconds extra to figure out how to fit this person into the team would be nice (and their opponents the same leeway to come up with a different strategy perhaps).

(2) WOW dungeon finder is a bit difficult to enforce, particularly since it enforces the usual meta. Imagine what VoyBoy would think when he can't queue up for AD Bruiser Karma top?? (Joking aside) Also, how would it be enforced once in champ select? One could simply apply for "support" and then rage on about how they want to take mid. The toxicity would ensue.

(3) Prisoner's Island idea works in theory, but (as I noticed others have mentioned) if someone unjustifiably gets sent there, poor player. The tribunal system would have to be tweaked with final judgment by Riot to send someone to this god-awful island.


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Diadave

Senior Member

03-18-2013

I've tried to read my way through some of this but.. well 270 pages is a lot so apologies if my point has been made. and made again, and no doubt made again.

But looking at this from a basic market research perspective

Your symptoms are might be bad behavior e.g trolling, anger and what not.

But the underlying cause is people wanting to play a specific role and not getting it?

Surely this is in the end a balance issue? If all roles are equally fun then, for the most part these problems will sort themselves out?

I think your key issue is communicating to the community the fun/value of the roles other than mid or top and making players believe that they are equally contributing to a teams victory whether they are Mid or Support.

But hey i'm sure you know this.


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AshKetchum47

Recruiter

03-18-2013

Quote:
Pryotra:
I personally think that most people, when they want a certain role, actually just want to play a certain character/a character from a certain group. That might be something to consider.


I'm not sure if this has, like most other things, been run into the ground already but it comes closest to what I actually see in champion select. In most games players call a role and then select the champ they want to run as fast as possible, showing that most likely they were actually only calling the role they called because they want to play a particular champion in a manner that best suits whatever role they called. For this reason I think maybe if, when you first select your game mode and pick type etc. before even queueing up, you could also select the three champions you most want to play in the game you are choosing to queue up for and maybe some information could be shown once you reach champion select, such as number of games played as each of said champions, that wouldn't necessarily bring about the negativity that looking one another up on lolking so often does, the reason for said negativity usually being the discovery of a low win rate in a certain role or on a certain champion. Although there is the obvious problem that would arise from selecting one of your least-played champions in your three because you genuinely want to play them to get better or just because you enjoy them, and then having your teammates see that you picked champions you hardly have any experience with and thus being immediately called out as a noob, scrub, etc., this champion preference would be an "opt-in" rather than an "opt-out" feature so that players who didn't opt-in would be essentially functioning the same way as the occasional players who take a while to choose a champion and switch back and forth several times because they really do only want to play a role and are less concerned with which champion they play, except they'd be doing it to avoid causing rage at their champ picks.

Maybe for that reason it could actually be a two-part system, with the second part being the role select option mentioned in OP, and allowing a maximum of two or three roles, so as to prevent people from selecting all roles to jump the queue and then demanding their way in the lobby, and this role select option would also be opt-in. Then, for people who choose not to opt-in to either part there would be the potential for a "team player" or "picks for the team" honor to be given if they do so, which in most cases they would, because typically people most willing to pick for the team are more considerate people and they sometimes don't even bother calling a role or even hovering on a champion, because they prefer to just wait it out and go with what the team comp is most in need of. As this honor would be optional just like current honor, players won't receive honor if they don't actually pick for the team.

I realize my wording may result in a lack of clarity as to what I propose be done for the player who wants to play a certain champion or champions but doesn't want the negative backlash when their teammates see how few games they've actually played said champion(s), but I'm honestly not really sure about that part myself yet.


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TGDHamster

Junior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Lyte:

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?

I have some ideas as to how this issue could be fixed (they are down below and marked as ZE SOLUTIONS if you don't want to read this post in it's entirety as it has gotten WAY TOO FAR OUTTA HAND) The issue being looked at is resolving the argument of who is playing what role. The first thing to address is the actual act of picking a champion.

In normal queue it's literally a free for all. Pick order is a moot point here so it won't be discussed. There's always going to be a person that calls a lane or role. The problem is there are more ways to go about it than this. You can simply pick your champion and hope your teammates respect that. You can also instantly lock, but this is generally frowned upon and for good reason as if too many people do it there are high odds of a generally shoddy comp. then there is calling. There are so many problems with calling.
1) Calling a lane is not the same as calling as a role. Technically you can play anyone anywhere. This misconception is part of the "meta" which has recently seen much alteration and experimentation of lately, so kudos for that. Sadly many people will get angry if the "meta" is not followed, and if they do then that honestly is their problem as the one of the points of the season 3 patch was to be able to have more options on a champion, albeit while still respecting the initial roles or niches that champion was meant to fill.
2) Calling has been placed on a pedestal higher than other methods like simply picking a champion. I will go more into this later as it also applies to draft/ranked.

In regards to draft/ranked... There is a problem with people perceiving pick order as how it works, and calling is how it works. While debating which one is superior may seem futile, I am inclined to lead towards pick order. I'm not trying to start an argument here so hear me out Let's face it. Pick order has a reason for why people believe it holds more weight: people are forced to take turns picking, and naturally whoever has first pick has free reign over whatever role they want to pick. What does calling have? Someone types "MID" into the chat. Okay...?

THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH BOTH METHODS. It all comes down to respect. It all depends on whether people respect that someone gets to take their turn first the same way that someone will respect that they have stated they want to do it first. Peering in it appears to be an unsolvable problem and it isn't hard to understand why. If someone has first pick and they pick a mid champ that's all fine and dandy, but if the person next has stated they want to go mid and decide to go mid anyway, what can you do? The person who had first pick has not respected the person who has stated they want to play that role. The person who has picked second has respected the fact that the other gets to pick first. This will devolve into an argument. First Pick argues that they had first pick, and Caller argues that they called it. First Pick argues that because the in-game system has given him/her the chance to pick first, they get to play whatever. Caller argues that because they called it first though, they... well... huh. it would appear that Caller doesn't have the same type of reason as to why their choice stands over, so they argue that their statement that isn't as much decided by the game which is the most important thing here but that they should be respected. Even though First Pick's argument does hold more weight as it is decided by the game, it still comes down to respect. Caller then decides to argue that since they are first they can be easily countered. First Pick argues that the game has decided they get to pick first and that is that. While it's true that First Pick can be more easily countered, it is reliant on the enemy team capitalizing on it as some match-ups are much more likely to go one-way as well as in the end it comes down to skill. A skilled Fizz can demolish a not as efficient Akali even though Akali has been deemed as a "counter" to Fizz.

I'm taking a look here at the solutions suggested in the original post only, and providing what I think are their strengths and weakness.

Solution 1 - This is the most straightforward and simplest solution. However I fear it would be far more abused than put to good use. Depending on how it's implemented, it could interfere with the actual selecting of champions, runes, masteries, and summoner spells. Plus in some of the lower elos it might happen constantly and some games will never get played because of it. You would need the votes set to kick at three. Not more, not less. If the guy is duo queuing that fourth vote will never happen and anything lower would be a even more ludicrous as if two peopela re duo queuing they are going to share the same bias. Plus if there is a 2-2 draw as whoever is being votekicked would always vote for themself to stay. This is the only solution suggested in the original post that is there for dealing with the situation should it happen, and in all honesty it seems the best one. In the end though it all still comes down to respect, even for the others in select who may not even want to be part of the argument to make a choice. And even then do they ban the person who disrespected first pick or the call? That leads to the other issue. Which one of them gets kicked? I have an idea to remedy this to some extent under ZE SOLUTIONS.

2) The problem with playing this is the "meta" as everyone is technically playable everywhere. It then could become an issue of who goes where, but a lot of people do "respect" the "meta" so that might be as big an issue. The problem is then you have a third queue to deal with, and matchmaking would take longer.

3) How would you even orchestrate this? there are so many ways I could go into this, but a lot of it would be moot depending on how it's implementation happens.

ZE SOLUTIONS

This plays off the first suggestion in the original post. Instead of a kick player button, why not a "Disband Game" vote? This way it removes the "blame game" and the bias of whichever method of picking a summoner respects more. It then becomes a vote everyone can participate in. It would certainly need some trial running, but I think it could work with tweaking. Plus you don't want to follow through on an afk and dodging now has much more persecution attached to it than a time ban.

Or the solution where EVERYONE IS RANDOM AND MID ALWAYS >:DDDDDDDDDD

Goddamn this was WAY too long. TL DR Unless Riot states that there is a definite way of determining who picks what and attach a consequence if someone goes "**** IT I DO WHAT I WANT" This IS an unsolvable equation. Pick order is the most "official" way we have at the moment, but it all comes down to respect in the end.


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NBKEEP

Junior Member

03-18-2013

I mean, if you added the vote-kick system plus the Dungeon Finder together, it would limit the toxic players from trolling as support and wanting mid. I mean, everything goes once the game starts, but after that just sin bin them and the Tribunal can take them to prisoner's island. There would almost have to be like a "scoring" system, where if a player got vote-kicked out (with proper reasoning, maybe a form like at the end of a game? More reportable offenses?) they would then get points added towards being on prisoner's island. Likewise, with once a game started and someone complained/AFK'd or any other reason, they would get heavier penalties for being toxic to the environment. Nothing grinds my gears more than someone who is not flexible in ranked champ select, though rages and feeds in game when they do poorly.

Just like the new tiers for ranking someone, make a "ranking" system for a player's toxicity and then rank them accordingly; think of it like a subcategory amongst a larger category. But then would that increase queue times, since there are not as many players to choose from and you have to filter through the toxic players and the real players? That may also cause a problem.


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zaryte29

Member

03-19-2013

ok so this game is amazing from what i've experienced thus far with it, but the lobby is beyond ok. i just dealt with this two ques in a row hoping that these 3 people would've dopped from te que themselves. I know i should've dodged the que but i wanted to play to get these players reported and hopefully get them reported. This is why champion select needs to come up with something soon for issues that occur such as this. everything in bold is the ordeal i just confronted and bit my tongue through. incidents like these though ruin a great game such as this. i hope riot sees this and acts accordingly so this doesn't happen to someone else. Me (Zaryte29) and SJ Pinkie Pie were the only two in champ select that were not apart of the troll group. This was not ranked but it is still a plague to the game and will ruin a person approach and taste to the game with interactions such as this.

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Sj Pinkie Pie: mid
AngusWong97: ****
Sj Pinkie Pie: please
AngusWong97: TOP
AngusWong97: mid
SeizureKid: mid
victorcheer: mid
AngusWong97: *
AngusWong97: please
Sj Pinkie Pie: mids called
AngusWong97: I
zaryte29: they're trolls pinkie
SeizureKid: ban karma first
Sj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****
zaryte29: just dodge
AngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****
victorcheer: BAN KARMa
SeizureKid: HEHEHE
zaryte29: they did this last que
AngusWong97: MOTHER ******
SeizureKid: BAN KARMA
victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
AngusWong97: ******
AngusWong97: ******
victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
AngusWong97: ******
victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
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victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
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victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
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victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
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victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
Sj Pinkie Pie: wtf?
victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
zaryte29: tod u
victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
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victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
SeizureKid: BAN KARMA
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victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
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victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
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victorcheer: zaryte29: they're trolls pinkieSeizureKid: ban karma firstSj Pinkie Pie: ahh ****zaryte29: just dodgeAngusWong97: I REALLLYYYYYYYYYYYYY DON'T GIVE A ****victorcheer: BAN KARMaSeizureKid: HEHEHE
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AngusWong97: dodge
AngusWong97: PEASANTS
AngusWong97: DODGE
AngusWong97: peasants
victorcheer: were very social
AngusWong97: dodge
AngusWong97: VI-MANNN
zaryte29: dodge plz
zaryte29: this is bs
SeizureKid: YOU DODGE
SeizureKid: YOUR MMOTHERS BSD
SeizureKid: SHE SUCKS SHT
SeizureKid: ALL DAY


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Hutch

Senior Member

03-19-2013

I have been playing this game since beta. I have played DotA since like 2000 or something, i forget now. I am extremely used to the lobbies and put a ton of thought into improving it, and I believe Riot and the community will be fond of my solution.

First, the three types of lobbies must be differentiated. Blind Pick Solo, Draft Pick Solo, Full Team.

I think everyone can agree that full 5-man premades do not have the issues that champ select already has, so it can be left unchanged. Therefore, Ranked Team games and 5-man normals should remain untouched.

This leaves the issue of Blind Pick Solo and Draft Pick Solo. It must be recognized that these two lobbies function in entirely different ways and cannot be treated the same. Blind Pick Solo can generally just be called "for fun" queueing. Win/Loss does not matter in reality, but what does matter is having fun. Generally speaking, people do not tend to DEMAND their role in Blind Pick nearly as often as in Draft Pick. People in Blind Pick are also usually willing to conform to the "mid or feed" person that comes along on occasion. This is because Blind Pick is not a competitive environment. Therefore leave it alone as well, because for the most part, it works. I will come back to Blind Pick after I make my case for changes to Draft Pick.

Now, for draft pick. This is where the real issues come in. In draft pick, people are far more serious about winning. There is also the issue of queue dodging in Normal Draft Pick which makes it played much less; my solution solves that as well.

People in Draft Pick want to win. They want strong bans, they want workable team comps, and "usually" desire to follow the meta. Very rarely does a whole team in Solo Queue Draft Pick choose to break the meta, so I think the meta should be allowed to be loosely enforced.

For example, you might say you want players to be able to resist the meta in solo queue, but imagine two players who duo queue wanting to duo mid ADC/Support. Currently they have to try and convince their team of this in lobby, they cant just uni-laterally decide to make this happen and their team conform. So please do not shoot down my idea because it does not allow for EVERY eccentricity possible to players.

Here is the idea. Make queueing for Draft Pick require picking 1 or more roles they are willing to play AND assign it to them. The roles will be Top Lane, Mid Lane, Jungler, Bot Lane, Support, Fill-In (aka ALL). The system will always group players with every role filled in. What this allows is for mild enforcement of the meta while also allowing extraordinarily increased chance of viable team comps.
You may end up with a team with these marks:
Player 1: Top/Mid
Player 2: Top/Support
Player 3: Fill-In
Player 4: Mid
Player 5: Bot/Mid

In this situation, the game would sort the team out and assign them these roles:
Player 1: Top
Player 2: Support
Player 3: Jungle
Player 4: Mid
Player 5: Bot

Tah-dah! A viable team comp every time.

Now, this means that players will NEVER be forced to play a role they are not willing to play. Now let me show you the flexibility of this system.

What if a duo queue wanted to take a poppy/soraka bot lane? They now can, by each filling out ONLY the role they want. Sure, their team may not like them choosing to do this, but that is no different than a duo queue currently calling bot lane and then choosing poppy/soraka and the team disliking it.

What if someone wants to play Nami top? Then they sign up for "Top Lane" and then choose Nami. Their team may not like it, but it is no different than someone currently calling Top Lane and choosing Nami and their team disliking it. So please note that this system does not create any new problems with people not "filling their role properly."

What the system does do is allows players to get the roles they desire which encourages cooperation.

Also, choosing outside the role you are assigned should be a bannable offense if your team is not in agreement with it. For example, the assigned top laner wants to play Nami top. Then the assigned support says "Hey, I also can play top, and I disagree with Nami top, so Im going to take Darius top and make you support now." This should be strictly forbidden and a reportable/bannable offense. Players must play the role they are assigned unless ALL other players on the team consent to a change.

In addition, this system allows for lane swaps if the team desires. Once in lobby, the assigned support and bot laner may say, "Hey, top lane, want to lane swap and you come bot and we go top?" And if he agrees, then guess what, the meta is now changeable even within these limits.

This will also GREATLY reduce queue dodging in Draft Pick making Normal Draft Pick the place to go now when someone wants to play a specific role for certain; because the primary issue currently with Normal Draft Pick is how long it takes to get a game because of queue dodges. With Normal Draft Pick becoming a viable option for people who want to only play a certain role, this increases the "just for fun" nature of Normal Blind Pick in which the meta need not be followed in the least and people do not need to demand a certain role.

If a Red could please respond to this post and try to explain why my idea is bad in any way, I would love to hear it and respond back. I do not see any downside to this method of doing Draft Pick queues.


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Best Furry NA

Member

03-19-2013

How about this?

If you make things to constricting (role queuing, vote to kick, etc), problems arise.

Why not have something simple?

When you queue up, choose one of two options. "Fill" or "Mostly Decided".

"Mostly Decided" would imply that you have one or two roles in mind. Fill would imply closer to 4-5. Yes, theoretically multiple "Mostly Decided" mids could come into play, but it would at least be less often.

When queuing, it would bring maybe at max 2-3 "Mostly Decided"s, and 2-3 "Fill"s.

Yay? Nay?