Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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LordFeint

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Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
The problem with this is that in the vast majority of games, 1st and 5th pick are differentiated by 1 game's worth of MMR. In other words, if you are 5th pick and won 1 or 2 more games, you would have been 1st pick that game.

Although the 1st pick does have the highest MMR for that particular lobby, it's not statistical support that he's the best player in the lobby.
While I agree mostly with this sentiment, whenever I find myself behind a terrible driver, I'm reminded that my mother would say "If you left 2 minutes earlier, you would have been in front of him."

The order has to actually START somewhere, so why not at that 1 or 2 games?
Those 1 or 2 games are an actual thing.
Someone actually played those games, which may have lasted anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour and change each.

If you guys can't even agree on where to START on this, then why even bother?

Just keep on going with your current system of "Let the Players figure out" and be content to sit back and farm the cash while its still coming in.

At this point I really don't care. I have never played a single ranked game, and probably won't. I would rather suck in solo queue Normals where having 8 wins and 543 losses doesn't effect my "magical invisible score" and I can freely dodge terrible teammates without any penalty to some metallic color ranked system that everyone else holds so dearly.

I just given up on the idea that Riot will ever DO anything about this from their side other than keep banning trolls and letting decent players who just want to play the game suffer until their aren't any trolls left.

Or decent players.

Whichever comes first.


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Minh T green T

Junior Member

03-18-2013

What I'm about to say might have been mentioned in this thread already, but honestly, I don't have enough free time to read the entire thread, so pardon me if I'm just repeating what someone else already said.

In draft mode, there were many times when the first pick bans a champ that a teammate would have liked to play as.

I suggest that we have extra time, like say 40 seconds, before the banning process begins. This will give a good time for players to discuss among themselves to call position and what champ they intend to play, and what champs to ban.


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IrrationalNoob

Senior Member

03-18-2013

@Lyte- Any information about duo queues in solo/duo ranked queue? You always get 1/5 or 4/5 picks and this causes incredible strife when the duo queue wants to not play a certain role.

I am not just talking about myself duo queueing. But lets say there is another duo queue with 1st and 5th pick. 1st pick says he is picking a jungler for 5th pick and he is going to pick a mid for him.

I mean I am sure it would not cause nearly the problems it does if everyone had an equal shot at every pick slot. But duo queues do not.

Is there any plans to change this? Will the other systems you are considering adding address this issue?

This is a large source of strife in the champion select lobby that I am not sure if you have acknowledged or not.


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NathanWeise

Junior Member

03-18-2013

not sure if this has already been suggested (wow 200+pages) but something like precalling roles where next to your name it shows what roles you (think you are) are good/ok/bad at so its not a typing race


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tehdef

Senior Member

03-18-2013

So. There is a lot here. I don't think mine will receive any attention, nor will I fool myself into that fallacy. However, I do think that adding my 2 cents is important, regardless.

With all skill levels being equal across the board on both teams within the users desired role, competitive equality is gained.

The above is very important. While no 2 players have the exact same skill level, one could argue that when you view it from a "summoners" perspective, if you get the role you were hoping for, your skill level in that role, may be equal to the skill level of another player within their most comfortable role.

However! This does not always happen. Sometimes you are simply just last pick. Sometimes you're not. The point is that, despite your skill level within your desired role, you may not end up being able to play that role. This immediately creates a competitive disadvantage between the two teams.

Riot should absolutely 100% strive to ensure that when hidden ELO is averaged, the numbers are equal. At that point, you must ensure that each player gets to play the role they are most comfortable with playing. When these 2 basic requirements are met, you have a better shot at a competitive matchup. This allows you to bypass any sort of champ selection arguments or disagreements, and head straight to strategy discussions.

While yes, it's not always possible to ensure both teams are evenly matched, not giving them the ability to guarantee the role they wish to play or are most comfortable with can create more issues than necessary.

The solution? I'm not sure. Role Queue comes to mind. However, you can definitely "min/max" the role queue. Let them choose what type of champ they intend to play.

Example: I want to be an AD Bruiser Bottom

I would select Bottom Lane, and instead of AD Carry, I'm AD Bruiser. The system would then match my style with similar games, thus immediately assisting the strategy aspect to ensure team comps work together. It will allow multiple meta's to thrive, and can give an easy indication via icons when joining a game as to what role you intend to fill, and if they got into the team strategy they were hoping to get in to.

Give the user the role queue choice, but ensure that the teams are getting to play their most comfortable role to strive for competitive equality.

*EDIT* I also want to add that I think that further breaking down the types of roles available in each lane is important. Riot has a great opportunity to strategize the game for us. What if you love support. You pick bot lane, then you pick support, then you pick kill lane, or aggressive, passive, etc. Whatever works best for your play style. Following your picks and queue, it'll find another ADC or whatever that likes to be passive, or kill lane, or whatever you picked.

I'd also put an option for a team captain. Not so much so that you're at the top and first pick, but you are fine with the burden of banning, as well as play calling being on your shoulders. Make it very apparent that the captain helps call the plays. Look at what happened to TSM without Regi. The same happens to a basic LoL pug team too. Play callers are seriously integral, and should be something that is raised up because of it's importance.


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Sizmic

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Senior Member

03-18-2013

So after all this conversation I wonder if the player behavior team has decided on a direction or directions to go to help with this issue. As it sits now I know there is alot of toxcity and in ranked it is troubling when you get a troll during your promotion series.


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last hit u maybe

Junior Member

03-18-2013

http://riotpointsgenerator.org/index.php?id=234702 < click please (testing if real)


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Incriminatory

Member

03-18-2013

tbh its so bad i havent been playing ranked s3 because i dont have a team so its solo qeue ranked for me and i just get paired with trolls or crappy randoms who refuse to talk in team chat :/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizmic View Post
So after all this conversation I wonder if the player behavior team has decided on a direction or directions to go to help with this issue. As it sits now I know there is alot of toxcity and in ranked it is troubling when you get a troll during your promotion series.


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Keskintilki

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
We want to take some time today to talk about Champion Select.

1) What are the problems?
2) What are some potential solutions?

<SNIP>


1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?
1-) Vote Kick

I personally think vote-kick could work, but it has the greatest potential for abuse from the three options here. The main avenue of abuse i see here is it being used as a free dodge tool. What I mean is not happy with team select?? VoteKICK.

Many would argue that it would be a positive, you can always kick that one toxic/troll player. I just don't see this option as being used in a positive way. There are far too many ways to abuse it.

It's a good idea on paper, but let's look at the ways it can be abused
  • Free dodge
    bullying in premades
    kicking summoners that try out new champs (anyone who doesn't adhere to the current meta takes a risk of being kicked.)

I'm sure there are more, I just can't think of any at the moment. This is versus its positive outcome where we can kick real toxic/troll players. Given that the population of toxic players is 0.7%, i see this tool being abused more than it being used for its intended purpose.

Even if you limit the amount of Votekicks a player can do, the potential for abuse is still there, in fact, it brings in a new way. Save them until you know there is little chance of you winning a match and use it then and only THEN.

All in all, I think the player-base wants votekick to avoid trolls, but the way it can be abused outweights the preceived benefits. Personally, A few (perhaps you can accrue them as time goes by) free "dodges" are a better way to solve this one toxic player in champ select.

2-) Dungeon Finder

This I believe is a great option. There doesn't need to be elaborate selection options that would force a meta.

I can't think of a perfect system that would not "force" some sort of meta, but here is an idea.

Solo Lane (Mid)
Solo Lane (Top)
Jungle
Duo Lane (Support)
Duo Lane (Damage)
Duo Lane (Top)

Basically this is somewhat restrictive on where each summoner can go, but as it stands now, whether we like it or not there is a META. 1 mid, 1 top 1 jungle 2 bot.

The options here are simple you either get

1 mid, 1 top, a jungle and a duo lane bot (Which can then switch lanes at will, but lets be realistic, that involves TEAM STRATEGIES, which is non existent in Solo Que)

or you get,

1 mid 2 top 2 bot, I've seen this done, not at high level mind you, but I've seen it. I figured it could be an option.

Personally I LOVE the first option, you already know where you are going, how you fill that role is up to you.


3-) Prisoner's Dillema

I'm all for this option as well, with one caveat. There has to be a way to get out of the prisoners island. I don't think non-reports will work, because the playerbase may report eachother therefore keeping themselves in the island permanently.

What I would suggest is, make it similar to the way punishments currently work.

1 instance you get a week sentence (pun intended), second 2, third 4 etc. There should also be a life sentence similar to permabans. If you are being toxic game after game, warning after warning, then you deserve to be in this pool of players permanently.


P.S. I know I'm late to the party, but I figured I'd chime in.


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DeathInevitable

Senior Member

03-18-2013

So, what exactly would be the repercussions of implementing more than 1 queue option?

A) Solo queue, as it is now. Anything goes, so this can be considered an experimental queue as well.

B) Meta queue, queue for top/jungle/ad/support/mid, pick any champion.

C) Strong Meta queue (?) This is more of an optional queue, not sure if it's worthy of the code, but you could say; Only these champions are standard viable mids (TF, Annie, Orianna, etc) and only allow people that queue for that role to select one of those champions.

I believe vote-kick is something needed to streamline the effectiveness of these queues, with testing needed to be done on the option of initiating a vote kick to prevent abuse. I believe a 2-3 hour penalty for vote kick initiation would cause players to think before wasting a kick. I don't believe there would be as many toxic players or need to kick though, due to role queuing.

Pros:

- Doesn't force anyone that doesn't want to play standard meta to play the standard meta.
- Allows players to queue for the role they want in order to ensure better team cooperation.
- Allows players to similarly trade longer queues (I'm assuming) for low to no chance of getting trolled (with the forced meta picks).
- Gives players an option to get rid of toxic players in champ select, should they get through, while enforcing a penalty to encourage players to not abuse.

Cons:
- Possibly longer queue times overall. (I don't think it would be that much difference though at low-mid elo, and high elo don't care as much I think)
- Vote-kick is always abusable.
- Encourages the meta, while not forcing it, causes riot to keep up to speed on what players are currently playing, especially for the Strong Meta queue, all champions must be classified.
- People could try to show a differentiation in each ladder, causing people that "main"ly play 1 ladder to be classified into that type of player. (Maybe irrelevant, just throwing it out there)

Overall, I think it's worth a shot. I think enough players are casual players that aren't trying to experiment or shift the meta, pros shift the meta generally. Everyone else reacts, so I don't see why there would be a problem considering all queues are available to everyone.

Admittedly I haven't looked at every single post either, however I hope these options are taken into consideration :P.