Let's talk about Champ Select

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pchannington

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03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
We want to take some time today to talk about Champion Select.
These are some major problems with Champ Select that we’ve identified in our research. So what’s next? A lot of players have suggested the following:

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?
As for 1): I like this idea, but I fear that some people will abuse it by kicking people that they may not like or something like that. Another fear is that I may lead to stagnating the game-play. An example is, in champ select of a game, a player chooses a champion for a role in which he is not typically picked. The player who chooses is not a troll, he just wants to experiment. Others may believe him to be toxic and kick him, forcing him to choose traditional champs for traditional roles.

As for 2): I see no problem with this, but I wonder how it will affect queue times. It should be an option to queue up this way though.

As for 3): The only problem I see with this is that, if Lyte stated that toxic players are only about 5% of the player population, then their queue times should go up by a lot! Wouldn't this encourage them to make new accounts too? The 95% shoudln't see much of a change, but I do hope that neutral and positive will not be put into separate 'brackets' or whatever.

Thoughts?


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Burgleburgle

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03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Vote kick is an interesting idea that has been suggested by players for quite awhile; however, what are some of the goals we'd like to accomplish for Champ Select?

One, we want to encourage cooperation in Champ Select. Two, we want players to have an ability to opt-out if they are 'stuck' with players they perceive are toxic or extremely negative. Vote-kick systems tend to give players an opt-out mechanism; however, they do not encourage cooperation.

In fact, in some scenarios vote-kick systems encourage premade groups to bully the strangers in the lobby into specific roles or champions. Given a scenario with 5 strangers, if 4 strangers happen to agree on roles and the 5th doesn't, the 4 strangers are highly likely to collaborate to kick the 5th. Given a vote-kick system, we are likely to see more disagreements than before, and greatly increase the time it takes to get into a game.
The reason that I like a "How much I care" slider for roles is because it leaves queue time in the hands of the player. If you have set "How much I care" to maximum, you really can't complain if it takes forever to find a queue - you are inflexible. If you care very little, and can play everything, you're going to get a game very quickly.

The worry is that any role-based calling system basically locks the meta. But you could still have people who want to double-bruiser Duo-queueing as support/ADC. And there's always the opportunity to talk to people in champ select and negotiate as to whether a strategy is acceptable.

Role queues provide a basis for that discussion, however.

-Cross


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Crsh

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
We want to take some time today to talk about Champion Select.

1) What are the problems?
2) What are some potential solutions?

The player behavior team has been running research on Champ Select and we agree that Champ Select is currently not a great environment and does not set teams up for success. We’ve all experienced Champ Selects that have erupted in arguments and had that sinking feeling that the game is lost before it even started. In saying this, there are plenty of Champ Select lobbies that are awesome and being positive and cooperative in every lobby does help; however, being positive by itself will not solve the problems in Champ Select and we don’t expect it to.

Solving player behavior problems in League of Legends requires collaboration between us and players and we haven’t done our part in Champ Select yet. As you can imagine, the problems (and any potential solutions) are complicated.

Something we’re seeing in our research is the influence of context.

But you know what?

This player's behavior isn’t toxic. He’s just like any one of us--we all have our bad days.

---

Let’s break down this scenario into some of the problems that we’d like to solve in Champ Select:

1) Real-Life Context | This scenario really illustrates how context outside the game can influence behavior inside the game. Traditionally, game studios don’t design or solve for context. Or can they?

2) In-Game Context | This scenario illustrates the conflict between Pick Order and Call Order. When there are literally no guidelines, at best, half of the players believe in Pick Order and half believe in Call Order—we’ve created a situation where conflicts are expected rather than rare.

3) Time Pressure | From psychology, we know that time pressure sometimes twists context in hostile ways. Players in Champ Select are effectively trying to negotiate with each other over individual goals (i.e, what role I want to play this game) that overlap with team goals (i.e, given this set of teammates, what’s the best strategy for us to win?). Studies suggest that throwing time pressure in there is like adding fuel to the fire—the end result is more disagreements and lower quality of negotiations.

4) Cognitive Biases | Hopefully davin will talk more about this, but people show cognitive bias in many ways. For example, many of us enter Champ Select thinking we are the best at whatever role we want to play—this is statistically impossible; however, there’s no reason to trust any of the strangers in the lobby. This really isn’t the players’ fault, it’s simply being human.

These are some major problems with Champ Select that we’ve identified in our research. So what’s next? A lot of players have suggested the following:

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?
Gonna add my two cents to the issue.

The lock-in feature is what is really frustrating to work through. More often than not a player can simply lock in and give everyone else in the lobby the bird because they know he can't change after that. Removing lock-in prompts more discussion on issues with champ selection.

I know that when it comes time for two players to pick, they both pick adc, and one locks in, you know that person just isn't going to be a team player.

I know prompting this kind of discussion is opening up new avenues for toxicity but I really don't see keeping lock-in around as anything but bad. The only benefit I can see is reducing lobby-times but the devs haven't expressed worry over that in some time anyway.


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Kask

Senior Member

03-13-2013

The problem is in the players in my opinion.

People put so much emphasis on blindly following the Meta that people are aggressively attacking each other pre-game in order to get the role they enjoy.

One of the aspects of LoL I enjoy is that there are no required roles. You don't have to have a healer, or a tank in order to win. Sure it might make it easier some times but I enjoy that freedom of choice. I enjoy being able to build any champion any way I want and I enjoy having the freedom to play any mode I want.

These roles that exist are not defined in the game and I don't believe they should be defined. I believe a Dungeon Finder style que system would only add a greater definition to the existing Meta, and make it even more problematic for players to play the game the way they chose.

I believe what makes LoL truely unique is that there are no defined roles. There are guidelines for a team, but nothing is set in stone. It upsets me when people try to demand others to follow these guidelines to the T. Especially in solo que.

Another issue that will arise with a Dungeon Finder Que system:
Que times for Mid/Top lanes will be longer than the rest, which will cause players to que for other lane positions and then select champions for different roles than they qued for without additional restraints implemented.

I don't know what the right answer is, but I can tell you that there are two things I want.

1.) I would like the division system to be for normal blind pick games as well so I can know where I am at without having to use Draft mode since there is too much drama at champ select.

2.) A Que for the Proving Grounds so I don't have to play with people who think they have some shot at being a pro LoL player.


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SystemsChaos

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Status Kwoh View Post
I actually disagree. I think that the fear and concern that players have around role and champ select stems from a very natural place of wanting to do their best and have the team do their best.

Let's look at the typical situation. I drop into champ select with the firm knowledge of being awesome at my favorite role or champion but with zero knowledge of how good anyone else is at the other roles. If I have a known, high, level of confidence in my ability but zero knowledge of another player's ability, how much confidence and trust do I have in them taking it over me?

That is usually where this behavior stems from is that sort of thought process. This is what we need to find strong and healthy for the game ways to smooth out.

How can we help people feel more confident and build trust with their teammates pre-game so that players don't feel the pressure that can lead to negative outbursts? This is the sort of discussions Lyte and I have been having a lot here at the office.
What if you guys watch who plays what, and give them a title based on how well they do?

Im best at support imo. Say after ten games (mostly good), you give me the title of being a good support. My boyfriend is good at top. He does ten games with him being top, and if he does good, he gets the title of being a good top.

I also think #2 is the best approach for this


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tolore

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

I'm personally against vote kick because "player 5 won't support, kick" is not cool.


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Hugonauts

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03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
In fact, in some scenarios vote-kick systems encourage premade groups to bully the strangers in the lobby into specific roles or champions. Given a scenario with 5 strangers, if 4 strangers happen to agree on roles and the 5th doesn't, the 4 strangers are highly likely to collaborate to kick the 5th. Given a vote-kick system, we are likely to see more disagreements than before, and greatly increase the time it takes to get into a game.
Can we please have vote-kick for ranked only, then?


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Xaedo

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

I don't really support any of the three community inspired options.

1) This can be abused very easily to constrict the meta or help toxic players dodge games by trolling before the game starts.

2) The same, enforces meta even harder and queue times would be huge if you just want to play top/mid.

3) I really don't like this option, mostly because it really would be like an "ELO Hell" and seems to punish ragers more then help them reform.

I would rather have the Lobby time increased by a ridiculous amount like 5 minutes. This would help players in many ways:

1) Takes away the pressure from time, allowing players to make decisions more cautiously and take more time to consider other players' wants.

2) Allows for teams to be much more prepared before the games with strategies and getting to know each other better allowing for a smoother transition into the game.

3) You can introduce a sort of softer lock in for champions that can be reverted only once. Just in case a player changes their mind, just to be more accommodating. After everyone soft locks the timer will be reduced to the usual 10 seconds before the game starts as it had when everyone locks in.

3) If there is an afker, they will be found out easily through the system as they wont use the soft lock and can be thrown out after they don't lock in or choose champions for a little more than a minute


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Hasuobs

Senior Member

03-13-2013

They all have Pro's and Con's, but some of the Con's are

1. Vote Kick- This is probably the best of the 3 choices. The only problem is that players may "lolking" someone and vote them off for having some bad games- A small price to pay though. It is preferred that the vote would be 3/2 in order to kick, to prevent Duo's from trolling

2. WoW Dungeon Finder- BADBADBAD. This just won't work with a game like league, since some champs can be played multiple roles. I don't know how this would work well. Que times would increase and all that. What would happen if the meta shifts? Overall I feel that this discourages CREATIVENESS, which is something League simply can't do without.

3. Prisoner's Island- This is fine by me, since I'm super nice in game. However, to put all the trolls and ragers together makes it anti-fun for them. I mean, seriously, can you imagine being in a game where EVERYONE is raging? It's no fun having the game decided not by skill, but by player attitude. I'm fine with this idea though.


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xJoushi

Senior Member

03-13-2013

My personal thoughts on the "Dungeon Finder" idea are that it not only probably wouldn't work as well as people think, but shouldn't be implemented at all. Historically Riot has said that they don't want to force the meta onto people and I agree with this, and just because someone goes outside the meta doesn't mean they lose. In my personal experience it can even increase your chances of winning because the other team doesn't know how to respond to something that they're not used to.

But that's not why I think it's a bad idea.

How many times have people been in a queue and someone says "I can only play <role> or we'll lose"? Far too many. If they have a system like this then people will specialize, only playing one role over and over and over, and while they will get better at this particular role, they'll only do so at the cost of learning any of the others. Having the current system will force them to at least occasionally play roles they aren't used to, and become a better rounded player, with more varied experiences to draw on, which can be applied to other positions. Playing ADC can help teach positioning in fights which is good for other roles, jungling teaches you how much punishment your character can take when clearing the jungle and will help you retreat from fights at better times, playing top or support can really help teach the locations/timing/importance of warding, and there are tons of other examples.

The only way I can see something like this working is if each role gets a different division, so you could be a Platinum Mid, but are stuck in Bronze for Jungling, while your other roles are in Silver or Gold. If you spend so much time specializing in one role, and get to a higher tier with it in the normal Dungeon Finder system, if you tried playing other roles you would likely be outclassed and lose, bringing you down.