A real discussion about this ranked format, please

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Sicarius1264

Junior Member

03-11-2013

I am an avid player of LoL, specifically ranked 5v5 games. My reasons for this are simple. I enjoy games that provide a challenge (and as much as there are noobs who play this game, you won't find any skilled players in non-ranked games because they mean nothing), and I want to improve, get better, and eventually get to high ranking games where I can play with real pros. My argument against this current system is simple, it's unfair, and here's why:

1 - The premise. The basic idea with the current format is that individuals are rewarded based on whether or not they win the games they play. So, you are rewarding an individual based on the success of a team. This is a flawed concept, because even the most skilled players can be stuck in "elo hell" and never get out by the simple basis that they never get a winning team. And by the same token, the worse players, who troll, and complain, and surrender at 20 because they didn't get the lane they wanted or died a few times, can go on a winning streak and advance because their team carries them to victory.

2 - The points system and ladder. The fact that you lose just as many points for a loss as you gain for a win, so the reward for winning is the same or less than the punishment for losing, is also flawed, and makes no sense to me. Especially considering how difficult it is to win consistently in these games. It would be nice if there was a reward in ranking for a hot streak, or if the losses incurred were less damaging to your ladder ranking, maybe by half?

3 - The champion select process. This is a discussion that can turn into a flame war, but that is not my intent. The summoner's code says that the pick order takes priority. Common game etiquette dictates that you should "call" your lane so that everyone knows their role. We all know what happens when 2 people disagree on the lane they choose. So, in effect, you have a system where chaos reins supreme and people are free to be jerks and troll games, and effectively lose the game for the other 4 players before it even begins. This is also unfair to a player like myself, who knows how to play all roles, who has multiple champions, rune / mastery pages for each, and can truly be a skilled, team player, simply because I got the short straw and got the troll jerk on my team.

My solutions: It would be a 2 step process, that would make the overall player base in ranked queues more skilled and knowledgeable, and simultaneously be more fair to the entire community as far as rankings are concerned.

Step 1 - In ranked queues, pre-determine which roles are available for each player. You can set up a rotating system so that 1 game you might be the jungler, the next the support, the next the adc. Sometimes you might get 2 in a row, but it gives you variety so you don't feel bored always doing the same thing, and it would force the player base to learn each role and play each role so no one can "call a lane" and troll games because they were unhappy someone stole it from them and they felt wronged. You force the lanes onto people. The only argument against this would be "but I wanna play mid this game, waaahhhh" You could even allow players to queue and select the role they want to play, and join a game that matches them with players who want to play other roles. (Very similar to the queue system in World of Warcraft for the 5 man dungeons)

Step 2 - Determine a set of criteria specific to each "role" and reward players not only for the success of the team and a victory, but also for meeting specific criteria. If you are an adc you should do "X" amount of damage, have "X" amount of minion kills, and a positive kill/death ratio (as an example). A support should have more assists, not necessarily a positive kill/death ratio, gold earned and wards purchased / placed etc. Now that your players have been pre-selected for certain roles, you can measure the success of that player at that role with the criteria. And for each criteria met, they get more ranking points and move up. That way, even if your team is absolutely horrible, if you do your job well, you can still move up, or at least not move down the rankings. So, in essence, the good players are still rewarded even though they were on a crappy team.

TLDR, I know, but I'd like to hear back from the devs on this and get some feedback. I think these things would greatly increase the joy of the game again and make me not feel like I need to quit forever.


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Sicarius1264

Junior Member

03-11-2013

Bump!


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Diam0nd wing

Junior Member

03-12-2013

Your idea for predetermining your position is a good one, and i would like to see lol implement it. however, you could still have people still being ******s and going a different lane because they feel like it. it would stop fights between other decent players over lanes.

your second idea also has merit, but that would be judging individual skill, not teamwork so much. also, you might be laning against the best player in the game, and even if your second best, you will get negative KD. it should probably be a half half, or some sort of balance between them, but there is no perfect answer.

also remember that if trolls are ruining the game, report them. if they get reported enough, they could get banned or kept out of ranked, or whatever riot does to them. that way you only experience them at the start o the game, and you can have better games later on.


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Sicarius1264

Junior Member

03-12-2013

You have a point about the judging individual skill vs teamwork. My ideas are simply suggestions, in the hopes that Riot takes a look at these ideas and seriously considers them for future game improvement. Ultimately, they can be the ones to determine what the criteria are. I just think it needs to be a bit more balanced and fair for individuals who are skilled and do enjoy the game, but cannot excel and play with others of similar attitudes because trolls and jerks that lurk in the lower ranks ruin it for you.


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laxjoh

Senior Member

03-12-2013

Hey, I think you bring some valid points that frustrate many players about the ranked system. However, there are many flaws in your ideology. Although some of your solutions are good with some revisions, I will ultimately be arguing against the points you made about the current ranking system. Keep in mind this topic has been discussed and tackled numerous times before your post.

1. This entire point is simply not true. There is no such thing as ELO hell. A skilled player will climb the ranks PERIOD. If you are not skilled to climb out of this supposed ELO hell, then it simply means you belong in that rank division/tier/ELO you are in. The reason being is because of the simple fact that there are many that can carry games. Carrying games simply do not mean winning your lane. Carrying games consist of helping to get objectives, helping your teammates get fed and win their lanes, helping your team by increasing your chances to win hence the word carrying your team. The higher ranking you go up, the more you will see people give up much less. There have been some insane comebacks in the past and ANYONE can pull it off with a bit of skill, timing, and luck (this being your enemy makes mistakes and you capitalize on it). Also, the way this ELO/ranking system works is that while it does not reflect on your personal individual skill, it is a calculation based off of your win/lose rate. ELO has already been adjusted for team games such as sports. Now people can make valid arguments saying in professional sportsl ike the NBA or NCAA, the teams are who they practice with so it cannot be comparable to solo queue.

In that regards, this is how you must look at ELO and ranking system. Sure you will lose games that is out of your control. However, if you keep playing consistently (which is the most important part) you will climb ranks and therefore eventually climb up the ladder. While your current ranking placement might not reflect your overall individual skill, your consistent playing and the overall total accumulated ranked games will eventually reflect upon what your personal individual skill will be. This can be supported by the fact that most people win games more often if they get fed/have positive scores. Sure you lose games even when you are fed but the fact is that getting fed/positive scores/winning lane definitely increases your team's chance of winning. Like I said, this is where consistency comes into play. If you keep playing consistently and contributing positively to the team's efforts to winning, your win ratio will increase. You definitely win more games if you are positive than when you are negative, as an overall statistic number. This also disproves ELO hell because ELO hell is simply a word created out of frustration of many people. Best way to "get out of ELO HELL" is to simply improve individual skill play and learning how to carry.

2. You do NOT lose the same amount of LP as when you win. In fact, more often than not you will lose more LP than you gain depending on where you are ranked in your division. Me for instance; if I win ranked, I gain 13 LP. Sometimes up to 20. However, when I lose, it is always 20-30. Depending on where you are placed in the division will determine how much LP you will gain or lose. For instance, when I am near the top of my division (ie. Bronze 1, Silver 1, etc etc but you are ranked 1-10) you will probably only gain single digit LP for a win but lose about 13-20 LP. This is to ensure you don't "accidentally" rank up to placements you shouldn't be in.

3. The champ select process has been debated for a very long time. I remember when I first started LoL, people were already discussing it and even then everyone said it has been discussed for eternity. Riot will never implement that queue role system simply because they said they won't. With the queue role system, you will have a much harder time finding ranked games because some people do not like to solo queue as support or some other role. Also, mid/top are hotly contested more so than other roles. This will create a flux in the queue system causing many people who are queued for mid/top to take a much longer time finding games via matchmaking.

Technically, pick order takes priority over calling. This is because it is a draft pick game and people will argue by saying "Why play a draft pick game mode when you refuse to abide by the draft policy?" The draft policy isn't a written rule but it is like gravity. You are in a draft pick game therefore pick order takes priority. However, the higher ELO/ranks you go, the more people are willing to let you pick your role. For instance, majority of the times when I play ranked, people call roles and most people concede those roles to them so they are happy. It is rare for people to be a jerk. On the times that people ARE a jerk, you simply ignore and don't even get mad. Because it's draft pick. Calling roles; you are asking your teammates who pick before you if they will let you have that role. If they do, then hurray. If not, then just move on. No point sulking over it. You should learn all roles well enough to play decently if you want to rank anyways. Now, I generally let people take roles if it is up to me. I'd much prefer them at their best role since I can play all roles decently. However, if someone who takes priority pick over the players who called takes the contested role, I will defend the guy who has pick order priority. If the person who called is sensitive and rages over it, then I will report the guy who called the role and is raging; not the guy who has pick priority.

I hope my input means something and I do not mean any offense or anything. Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in there. There was nothing wrong with the old ELO system and there's nothing wrong with the current ranking system either. It's just not everyone's cup-of-tea.


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Sicarius1264

Junior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by laxjoh View Post
Hey, I think you bring some valid points that frustrate many players about the ranked system. However, there are many flaws in your ideology. Although some of your solutions are good with some revisions, I will ultimately be arguing against the points you made about the current ranking system. Keep in mind this topic has been discussed and tackled numerous times before your post.

1. This entire point is simply not true. There is no such thing as ELO hell. A skilled player will climb the ranks PERIOD. If you are not skilled to climb out of this supposed ELO hell, then it simply means you belong in that rank division/tier/ELO you are in. The reason being is because of the simple fact that there are many that can carry games. Carrying games simply do not mean winning your lane. Carrying games consist of helping to get objectives, helping your teammates get fed and win their lanes, helping your team by increasing your chances to win hence the word carrying your team. The higher ranking you go up, the more you will see people give up much less. There have been some insane comebacks in the past and ANYONE can pull it off with a bit of skill, timing, and luck (this being your enemy makes mistakes and you capitalize on it). Also, the way this ELO/ranking system works is that while it does not reflect on your personal individual skill, it is a calculation based off of your win/lose rate. ELO has already been adjusted for team games such as sports. Now people can make valid arguments saying in professional sportsl ike the NBA or NCAA, the teams are who they practice with so it cannot be comparable to solo queue.
And I will counter that with, "No, you're wrong." My own case is a prime example. I am a skilled player. I have no way to really prove this to you other than playing you 1v1, which isn't really a strong indicator of how good I am as a player in 5v5, but it will give you an idea that I know how to play the game, how to kill an opponent, and how to win. Yet, for the past 2 weeks, I have lost about 90% of the games I've played and that is not an exaggeration. When I play, I play a carry, and I almost always win my lane and do my job, but inevitably lose because of fail teammates who don't know proper end-game strategy, quitters who afk, or one of the other million reasons why people lose. I have dropped practically 2 tiers of rank due to these losses that are completely out of my control. I could be the best player in the world and never win a game, because of the simple fact that it is a team game and 1 player cannot win against 5 on his own (unless you're darius, cuz he's OP as hell).

Quote:
3. The champ select process has been debated for a very long time. I remember when I first started LoL, people were already discussing it and even then everyone said it has been discussed for eternity. Riot will never implement that queue role system simply because they said they won't. With the queue role system, you will have a much harder time finding ranked games because some people do not like to solo queue as support or some other role. Also, mid/top are hotly contested more so than other roles. This will create a flux in the queue system causing many people who are queued for mid/top to take a much longer time finding games via matchmaking.

Technically, pick order takes priority over calling. This is because it is a draft pick game and people will argue by saying "Why play a draft pick game mode when you refuse to abide by the draft policy?" The draft policy isn't a written rule but it is like gravity. You are in a draft pick game therefore pick order takes priority. However, the higher ELO/ranks you go, the more people are willing to let you pick your role. For instance, majority of the times when I play ranked, people call roles and most people concede those roles to them so they are happy. It is rare for people to be a jerk. On the times that people ARE a jerk, you simply ignore and don't even get mad. Because it's draft pick. Calling roles; you are asking your teammates who pick before you if they will let you have that role. If they do, then hurray. If not, then just move on. No point sulking over it. You should learn all roles well enough to play decently if you want to rank anyways. Now, I generally let people take roles if it is up to me. I'd much prefer them at their best role since I can play all roles decently. However, if someone who takes priority pick over the players who called takes the contested role, I will defend the guy who has pick order priority. If the person who called is sensitive and rages over it, then I will report the guy who called the role and is raging; not the guy who has pick priority.
Yes, it would create a flux in the queue system, again using WoW as an example. The queues take about 20 minutes if you are solo queued in as a dps. However, tanks and healers get in instantly. If we roll that over to LoL, then anyone who wants to play mid / top might have a longer queue, because those are the most contested lanes, but people who support get in instantly because those are least contested. Is that a bad thing? If anything, it forces players to learn to play support and learn more roles so they can queue for anything and get into games faster. I'm all for forcing the learning process onto the player base, because people now have no interest in learning to get better, they just like to whine and complain and stay stuck where they are at and the rest of us have to suffer for it.

Quote:
I hope my input means something and I do not mean any offense or anything. Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in there. There was nothing wrong with the old ELO system and there's nothing wrong with the current ranking system either. It's just not everyone's cup-of-tea.
I disagree that there's nothing wrong, but I take no offense.


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Fluffyknowsyou

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I don't like the pre-prescribed roles because pantheon is a champion has been jungled, topped and in mid. If you go in for mid lane and he's not considered a "mid", then you can't play an unorthadox champion who may counter another.

The toning down of losing streaks somewhat peaks my interest because a winning streak of 7 can be undone in 3 or 4 games, depending on your lp losses. It'd be nice I didn't have to win 5 games in a row to get to my division series,but then others who are better have gone way beyond that to climb the ladder. It'd be unfair to those who climbed when it was difficult and would introduce new problems, to lessen the penalties on losing streaks.


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kkims007

Member

03-13-2013

bump - they really need to implement something since so many trolls calling roles they can't play


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ChiSqrd

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Riot needs to hire this guy.


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Sicarius1264

Junior Member

03-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DankChi View Post
Riot needs to hire this guy.
Me? lol


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