[Guide] - The New Ryze, A Low AP Build

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Ligr

Senior Member

12-07-2009

Great guide, went with this build 9/6/19 against a competent team. I was quite mediocre most early/mid game, but once some of the items are done, this guy starts to own hard. And in end game, he is a beast. I don't know if it was only my damage, but the enemies kept dying like fleas.


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Aregionius

Senior Wrenchman

12-07-2009

Thanks for the feedback, I'm glad this build is working out for so many of you!

Couple of notes,

1. This build is optimized for level 30. That gives you access to all the runes and masteries and spells that are tailored specifically for the build. A level 1 summoner who's lacking the extra couple hundred mana and especially the 9% cooldown in masteries and 6% in runes won't see as much value from this build and should adjust accordingly.

2. Dulhyra, the reason we don't use Chalice here, is because the boots and veil cover most of the magic resist. With a mana pool over 4k, mana regen isn't as necessary and regen doesn't contribute to Overload damage.
Also, the Chalice passive is less useful here because it doesn't scale for larger mana pools. For example. You have 100 mana and chalice, you fire off your spell that uses 90 mana. Chalice goes crazy because you're missing 90% of your mana. Versus - You have 1000 mana, fire off a spell using 90 mana and your chalice regen stays low since you're only missing .9% of your mana pool.

3. One of the things I really like about this build is that you can cover all of the core elements in just 5 items. You've got your survivability down, huge mana pool and max cooldown. That means you can adjust the 6th item to your playstyle. Like Arghanos' beast survivability build or Patyrn with your Deathfire Grasp, there is some adaptability late game.

4. This build is about optimization, dps from cooldown and sustainability versus spike damage. But, even though this is a low-AP build it doesn't mean you're without damage. On top of the speed at which you're able to use and reuse your abilities, you've still got approximately 150+ AP from Archangel's Staff and the Void Staff. With your large mana pool, you're looking at an Overload of at least 700+ damage and more if you want to go with Zhonya's Ring or an AP/Mana 6th item. Coupled with Spell Flux for Dmg/Debuff this can still do some decent spike damage.


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Bane Elemental

Member

12-07-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meta View Post
I find that no matter what build you go with Ryze now, if the enemy is smart enough to stack just a little defense (Health, Resist, etc), then you're not going to insta-gib anyone anymore.
you can say that about any hero. if X hero has enough life to tank X hero then you're not going to insta anyone. simple fact of the matter is. there are specific hero types.
for example. "dps" "tanks" "nukes" "mages" "pushers"
you're not sopposed to go after the "high life" heros first with a character likes ryze/annie/hell anyone...
you go after the squishes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Meta View Post
This isn't the old bursty Ryze we had before, but what we have instead is MUCH more powerful if used properly.
just because someone doesn't share you're opinion or plays differently doesn't mean they way they play isn't effective.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Meta View Post
With 40% cooldown reduction, which is very easy to achieve, the base cooldown on Overload is 4.2 seconds, bringing it down to 2.2 seconds with Prison/Flux + passive.
your math is off. 40% of 4.2 is 1.68 4.2-1.6 is 2.6 therefore 40% of 4.2 is 2.6. therefore it brings it down to 2.6 not 2.2.

not checking your math on the ryze ult.

simply put. cd reduction is good. but its not the only way to play ryze. there are other ways, which makes it more difficult to counter.


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Meta

Member

12-07-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane Elemental View Post
you can say that about any hero. if X hero has enough life to tank X hero then you're not going to insta anyone. simple fact of the matter is. there are specific hero types.
for example. "dps" "tanks" "nukes" "mages" "pushers"
you're not sopposed to go after the "high life" heros first with a character likes ryze/annie/hell anyone...
you go after the squishes.
I was referring to the squishies.

I'm not sure how it is at your level of play, but where I'm at, typically by the time mid-game rolls around, any squishy character that doesn't have a reliable escape mechanism usually has enough health to survive any Ryze burst. I'm sure at other ELO's people may play differently, but where I'm at nobody is stupid enough to allow themselves to be insta-gibbable.

Early-game, you probably can gib people pretty effectively. However, AP stacking isn't going to do that. As someone else stated in this thread, you'll get MUCH higher damage per gold by stacking mana than stacking AP. This spec stacks mana early-game, and survivability/cooldown reduction mid-late game.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane Elemental View Post
just because someone doesn't share you're opinion or plays differently doesn't mean they way they play isn't effective.
It's true, to an extent. I was simply giving my results based on my observations. I've played with an AP spec on the new Ryze, and was very unsatisfied with the results. I've since been refining a cooldown and mana spec and have been very pleased with the results.

Sometimes certain specs -are- the best way to go. You don't see many crit-damage specced Anivias.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane Elemental View Post
your math is off. 40% of 4.2 is 1.68 4.2-1.6 is 2.6 therefore 40% of 4.2 is 2.6. therefore it brings it down to 2.6 not 2.2.
My math isn't off, your interpretation of my math is off.

Overload:

7 Second cooldown base (No cooldown Reduction)
40% cooldown reduction from items/runes/masteries = 0.6 * 7 = 4.2

So, you have your overload at a 4.2 second cooldown. However, if you're spamming your abilities properly, you should be able to cast a Prison and Spell Flux in between Overloads. Each cast reduces the cooldown of your other spells by 1 second.

1 second * 2 spells = 2 seconds

4.2 - 2 = 2.2 second cooldown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane Elemental View Post
simply put. cd reduction is good. but its not the only way to play ryze. there are other ways, which makes it more difficult to counter.
I'm certain there are other ways to play him. As I stated above, I'm simply posting my experiences as to what I've seen be the most successful Ryze spec.

Additionally, I'd say this spec maximizes survivability, so if anything, this is the most difficult to counter spec I've seen yet. Would you care to share how an AP spec is "more difficult to counter"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane Elemental View Post
tried the -cd reduction. didn't find it very effective. his passive + if you take the time to get blue rune....
Just gonna pull this from the post you made earlier so I can give a little extra clarification. You mention his passive as a reason -not- to get cooldown reduction. However, what you're failing to take into account is that his passive gets better WITH cooldown reduction. Here's why:

His passive gets activated every time you cast a spell. The more spells you cast, the more often his passive will activate. The more often his pasive activates, the more spells you can cast. As your spells' cooldown decreases (both with ranking-up and cooldown reduction) your passive gets exponentially better. With the cooldown build, you're essentially maximizing the potenitial of your passive.

In regards to Golem Buff, it's true that this could substitute for part of your CD-reduction stacking. However, to me it seems like Ryze has a difficult time soloing Golem until mid-game, and even then it can be dangerous for Ryze to venture into the jungle by himself just to get the golem-buff. Additionally, he typically doesn't need the mana-regen with this spec because he stacks enough mana to keep himself covered.

Personally, I'd rather just let someone else on my team have Golem that could get more use out of it, and save myself the risk and trouble.


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thegamenet

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Recruiter

12-07-2009

Nice guide man - I posted it on www.thelolwiki.com and gave you full credit.


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Patyrn

Senior Member

12-07-2009

I can speak for this approach. I tried out the concept going Guise -> Catalyst -> Frozen Heart -> RoA -> RoA.

Sure, I didn't gib things quite as fast, but I also was able to stick around fights MUCH longer and just spam my abilities. Even with <100 AP I could easily blow up 80% of a carries HP.


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Bane Elemental

Member

12-07-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meta View Post
I was referring to the squishies.

I'm not sure how it is at your level of play, but where I'm at, typically by the time mid-game rolls around, any squishy character that doesn't have a reliable escape mechanism usually has enough health to survive any Ryze burst. I'm sure at other ELO's people may play differently, but where I'm at nobody is stupid enough to allow themselves to be insta-gibbable.

Early-game, you probably can gib people pretty effectively. However, AP stacking isn't going to do that. As someone else stated in this thread, you'll get MUCH higher damage per gold by stacking mana than stacking AP. This spec stacks mana early-game, and survivability/cooldown reduction mid-late game.





It's true, to an extent. I was simply giving my results based on my observations. I've played with an AP spec on the new Ryze, and was very unsatisfied with the results. I've since been refining a cooldown and mana spec and have been very pleased with the results.

Sometimes certain specs -are- the best way to go. You don't see many crit-damage specced Anivias.





My math isn't off, your interpretation of my math is off.

Overload:

7 Second cooldown base (No cooldown Reduction)
40% cooldown reduction from items/runes/masteries = 0.6 * 7 = 4.2

So, you have your overload at a 4.2 second cooldown. However, if you're spamming your abilities properly, you should be able to cast a Prison and Spell Flux in between Overloads. Each cast reduces the cooldown of your other spells by 1 second.

1 second * 2 spells = 2 seconds

4.2 - 2 = 2.2 second cooldown.



I'm certain there are other ways to play him. As I stated above, I'm simply posting my experiences as to what I've seen be the most successful Ryze spec.

Additionally, I'd say this spec maximizes survivability, so if anything, this is the most difficult to counter spec I've seen yet. Would you care to share how an AP spec is "more difficult to counter"?


Just gonna pull this from the post you made earlier so I can give a little extra clarification. You mention his passive as a reason -not- to get cooldown reduction. However, what you're failing to take into account is that his passive gets better WITH cooldown reduction. Here's why:

His passive gets activated every time you cast a spell. The more spells you cast, the more often his passive will activate. The more often his pasive activates, the more spells you can cast. As your spells' cooldown decreases (both with ranking-up and cooldown reduction) your passive gets exponentially better. With the cooldown build, you're essentially maximizing the potenitial of your passive.

In regards to Golem Buff, it's true that this could substitute for part of your CD-reduction stacking. However, to me it seems like Ryze has a difficult time soloing Golem until mid-game, and even then it can be dangerous for Ryze to venture into the jungle by himself just to get the golem-buff. Additionally, he typically doesn't need the mana-regen with this spec because he stacks enough mana to keep himself covered.

Personally, I'd rather just let someone else on my team have Golem that could get more use out of it, and save myself the risk and trouble.

just going to say these few things. and be done with it.

NEVER once did i say. ap > this build. really should go back and read my original post. if you're going to take certain thinsg and leave other things out.
NEVER once did i say i use an ap build.
please go back and read before you discuss.

as far as the golem thing. thats your personal opinion. and mine is i'd rather stack more LIFE. because at higher elo's as you've stated. ryze getsfocused down like hell.
Never once did i say the build that was said here was bad, nor did i deny the ability to have -cd's effective.
said that in my personal opinion. -cd's wasn't neccessary. especially at higher elo's or premades vs other premades. they WILL focus ryze first in teamfights.
hey /repeated myself for the 3rd time in hopes of people reading.
in higher elo's i'd rather get LIFE.

as far as leaving blue rune for someone else? and it being difficult for ryze to get earily game?
certainly you're not going to have frozen heart within 15mins on playing. 20mins? doubt it.
certainly in 20mins with tear/catalist can easily nuke down blue rune in a couple of shots.

or could do something super crazy. "hey teamate can you help me with blue rune?" like no way right? its a TEAM game? nuuh...... *eye roll*

anyways. its your personal choice to not use blue rune. just like its my personal choice to get it. and then stack life/mana.


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Barbedwire

Senior Member

12-07-2009

I do hope the OP know that every single AP item (except Rylais) also have +mana.
You want to get AP? You will also get mana... You don't have to "specc" mana or "itemize" for it.

Tried this build and I wasn't much impressed of the results (compared to the old "AP build"). Spell flux have lower AP ratios because it's no longer an ultimate. Overload got lower AP ratio because it's +dmg per mana no longer based on current but maximum mana. In other words all these changes are for balance reasons; Ryze would be same old OP if they had kep the old AP ratios. So saying his AP ratios is "bad" is just dumb.

-CD is a not a high priority for any dmg caster; AP and survavability is. On ryze it seems redundant to "specc" for it when you already have all of them on low-CD.

And for the record he is still a nuker...and not some utility support hero. "AP build" with +300- 1300 dmg fulfills this roles alot better than casting a bunch of weak spells every few seconds more often.


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Meta

Member

12-08-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane Elemental View Post
just going to say these few things. and be done with it.

NEVER once did i say. ap > this build. really should go back and read my original post. if you're going to take certain thinsg and leave other things out.
NEVER once did i say i use an ap build.
please go back and read before you discuss.
My appologies, after re-reading your build it is more of a mana-build. I think most of my points still stand, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane Elemental View Post
as far as the golem thing. thats your personal opinion. and mine is i'd rather stack more LIFE. because at higher elo's as you've stated. ryze getsfocused down like hell.
Never once did i say the build that was said here was bad, nor did i deny the ability to have -cd's effective.
said that in my personal opinion. -cd's wasn't neccessary. especially at higher elo's or premades vs other premades. they WILL focus ryze first in teamfights.
hey /repeated myself for the 3rd time in hopes of people reading.
in higher elo's i'd rather get LIFE.
Please don't get so defensive, I never once said you were wrong, I'm simply giving my opinion. That's all anyone is doing here, is giving their opinions and experiences.

Additionally, the build you mentioned didn't have ANY life-stacking items in it, while the build in the original post (The CD Reduc build) is focused almost entirely on life and defensive stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane Elemental View Post
as far as leaving blue rune for someone else? and it being difficult for ryze to get earily game?
certainly you're not going to have frozen heart within 15mins on playing. 20mins? doubt it.
certainly in 20mins with tear/catalist can easily nuke down blue rune in a couple of shots.

or could do something super crazy. "hey teamate can you help me with blue rune?" like no way right? its a TEAM game? nuuh...... *eye roll*

anyways. its your personal choice to not use blue rune. just like its my personal choice to get it. and then stack life/mana.
I didn't say I never get the blue rune either, I simply stated that I don't like to count on it. Additionally, I also mentioned that I would prefer to get the blue rune for one of my teammates that could get more use out of it. Please don't be demeaning in your posts, I obviously know it's a team-game. We're just having a discussion here, no need to insult.

Anyways, I'll leave you with this from last night in regards to your concern about survivability against higher-elo teams:

I personally don't know where I stand in Elo, as I've never been put on the top-500 list. However, last night I played a game against a 5-man premade that had two people from the most recent top-500 list on it (Nightfire #319, pendrix #198). My team was a full PUG, but we still managed to hold our own pretty well. We lost the game due to a pirate-bombs baron steal followed by an Ace, but my final score with Ryze that game was 19-2-16. I was usually the last person to go down in team fights, because I'd position myself on the opposite side of my team and nuke from max range. The opposing team would have to choose between pursuing me (with Merc Treads, Banshee Veil, Ghost) through my entire team, or letting me sit back and nuke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbedwire View Post
I do hope the OP know that every single AP item (except Rylais) also have +mana.
You want to get AP? You will also get mana... You don't have to "specc" mana or "itemize" for it.
Frozen Heart also has mana on it. I don't think the argument was whether or not to spec mana vs AP, but whether or not to spec AP vs CD Reduc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbedwire View Post
Tried this build and I wasn't much impressed of the results (compared to the old "AP build"). Spell flux have lower AP ratios because it's no longer an ultimate. Overload got lower AP ratio because it's +dmg per mana no longer based on current but maximum mana. In other words all these changes are for balance reasons; Ryze would be same old OP if they had kep the old AP ratios. So saying his AP ratios is "bad" is just dumb.
I think the argument was that his AP scaling is poor compared to other champions. Additionally, I think a lot of reason his AP scaling is so low is BECAUSE of the rapidfire potential he has with a CD Reduc spec. In other words, if you're spamming overloads every 2-seconds, and your spells do AOE damage half of the time, then you can't have AP Ratio's so insane that you're 2-shotting entire teams. Obviously it would take a pretty well-fed Ryze in order to achieve this, but I think this is a lot of where the balance comes in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbedwire View Post
-CD is a not a high priority for any dmg caster; AP and survavability is. On ryze it seems redundant to "specc" for it when you already have all of them on low-CD.
Here's my original quote about this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meta View Post
At max rank, Overload has a 7-second cooldown. Assuming you can squeeze in a Flux and a Prison in between, that'll make it a 5-second cooldown. Good, but not quite spammable.

With 40% cooldown reduction, which is very easy to achieve, the base cooldown on Overload is 4.2 seconds, bringing it down to 2.2 seconds with Prison/Flux + passive.

This means you're effectively casting your primary nuke more than twice as often as you would otherwise. Not only that, every time you're casting these, your ult decreases in cooldown.

With 40% cooldown reduction, Ryze ult is a mere 24 seconds. With chain nukes, you could realisitcally cut that in half.

Best of all, 40% cooldown reduction is CAKE to get. Using both Masteries and 7 blue Cooldown-Reduction Scaling runes, all you need is a Frozen Heart, which compliments the only other 2 areas you need to worry about with Ryze: Mana pool and Survivability.
His passive and already low cooldowns is the REASON to stack CD Reduc. His passive gets exponentially better the shorter his cooldowns are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbedwire View Post
And for the record he is still a nuker...and not some utility support hero. "AP build" with +300- 1300 dmg fulfills this roles alot better than casting a bunch of weak spells every few seconds more often.
In what universe are you getting +1300 Ability Power on Ryze? Additionally, I wouldn't call Ryze's spells "weak" even when you get a cooldown reduc build. Low cooldowns allow you to:
  • Keep the entire enemy team magic-resist debuffed using constant spell flux spam.
  • Root the other team's carry very consistently.
  • Spam AOE Overloads, which do HUGE damage with the amount of mana you get with Archangel's, Frozen Heart, Banshee Veil, and Void Staff. This alone WRECKS teams.
Trust me, with this CD Reduc build Ryze is NOT a utility support hero, he is definitely a nuker. However, while everyone is used to the typical caster gameplay as "Run in, blow cooldowns, run out", Ryze plays much more consistently. He's almost sort of a "caster carry" in that he can pump out sustained AOE damage without need for waiting on cooldowns or much worry of going OOM.

Since when is sustained damage bad?


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EchoRex

Senior Member

12-08-2009

Barbedwire, this build is for DPS not burst. What you're suggesting is a burst build like the old Ryze.

It is two different playstyles.

Both can be effective if played well, but where as the burst damage is great for ganking and getting last hits, the cooldown spam build is great for sustained pressure and damage.

In actualy practice, people know that once a AP stacked Burst Ryze blows his load, he's done and can be basically ignored for a bit because he doesn't really have anything else due to low AP ratios. A DPS Ryze on the other hand has constant lockdowns and damage flow, while that damage is not as large all at once, it can be larger due to the consistency of the damage.

The downfall of a cooldown based build is in getting silenced/stunned without a Cleanse available, this stops this build's damage/control stream to put a serious hurt on that Ryze's damage output. Where as a Burst build will just unleash when the silence is up and their over all damage is little changed other than the timing of that damage.