I'd like a good discussion about Karma's fans - serious thoughts

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Afrocalypse

Senior Member

03-08-2013

A little starting annotation: I brought this already up in the Karma thread by riot, but I feel like there won't be posted much besides personal oppinions about the rework atm. So I decided to bring my thought up in it's own thread.
This is NOT about whether you like Karma's new look or not, and please keep posts like "imho she is fine and doesnt need a rework blah" to yourself, because that has nothing to with this.

The actual topic:
So, as we know riot removed Karma's fans as they didn't think they fit her actual theme/character/whatever. She now has this ionian standard as her main feature.

But I can't get this in my head: (quote from my previous post)
"I might have forgot an argument, so correct me, but why again can't she just hold two fans?
Cause, from what I see from the images, she just throws energy. Like, out of her hands. If there happened to be a fan in her hand from which she throws the energy, what exactly would be so bad about that again?
The only thing I can think of would be to reserve them for a new champ to utilize them more... but tbh, to make a fan a real weapon you'd probably have to make something up anyways, wouldn't you? And it's not like it couldn't be allowed to have more than one fan-fighter.
Is there anything against using both the standard and fans to control spiritual energy?
Tbh that seems so unreasonable to me that I feel like I have to forgot something they said."

I was remembered of this:
"Her floating fans weren’t cutting it as magical conduits, so we replaced them with a powerful manifestation of her Ionian will. Now, Karma carries the draconic symbol of Ionia with her at all times."

My reply: Yes, the floating fans, I can understand that. But why the ones in her hands?

So, I wanted look further into this with all red posts concerning this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotRunaan View Post
Karma can now manifest her inner spirit and willpower as powerful magical energy. With her inner flame she can inspire and protect her allies, damage foes and manipulate the spiritual bonds between those around her. We’ve also taken her Ionian ties a step further: her magic springs from the crest of twin dragons in her mantle, literally and figuratively transforming her into a symbol of her homeland.
Well, I AM aware we don't really know what skills Karma will actually have, but we were given a picture. And with the given that she has this like a magical container on her back, it comes down to this for me: She throws her magic out of her hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Maybe so, but I think if that's the only price we pay (and with the new rig, the fans had to go), I think it's extremely minor for the gains.
You can hold bags while wearing a backpack, can't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Monkey View Post
Hey Guys, just to chime in on the fan conversation and to give some insight.
We got rid of the fans because they did not reflect who we wanted Karma to be going forward. The lore team really wanted to make Her the paragon of Ionia. The fans were not cutting it as a source of readable power in game either. So we iterated on the Ionian standard, the two swirling dragons. We played with the idea that She harnesses Her spiritual energy and uses the Two Ionian Jade Dragons as a conduit for her Mantra. After the particle team got hold of that idea, they made something that was much more impactful and holistic than the two fans. We feel it's a much stronger idea.
Ok, after my rather snippy comments I will come back to my point - "Is there anything against using both the standard and fans to control spiritual energy?" How does Karma having her standard hinder her from using fans to further manipulate the power?

I'm not qqing about change, but I'd like to have more insight on why you remove something iconic about a champion when there is no need to. Throwing magic out of her hands doesn't seem to me like it would be important to be like that, and we have a few mages that already do that. Her fans on the other hand give her more character, after all they are like a keepsake of her past for her (sure, you can just delete that lore, but you don't need to, like, why?), they don't need to be "a source of readable power" - as if every sword, staff or whatever on every champion was the definition of his whole background.

So, besides the ones who will ignore my arguments and just say I am crying over nothing, does anyone agree with me/disagree with me (if so, feel free to explain).

If I could get an involved rioter, that would also be very awesome.

Edit: I feel like this deserves a mention:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shasyr View Post
Also, her fans are even in her lore. They're used and mentioned in her League Judgement, back when the lore was good. Her Judgement especially was great.

Keep the fans, roit pls.
Edit2: I think I should point out more what I see:
Quote:
http://riot-web-static.s3.amazonaws....k/Karma_SS.jpg
Also let's look at this, though this may not be the final product, let's use what they gave us.
The upper picture in the middle is my main point of "she throws her magic with her hands". Couldn't she use her fans to form and fire that attack? So far that seems to fit even more than her current Q.


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MysteltainSensei

Senior Member

03-08-2013

i really think the fans were what made Karma who she is. If you think about the champions, their weapons are what made them stand out. For instance, Draven and his spinning axes, Jax and his lamp post, Yi and his many sword things, Kennen and his shuriken, Cait and her sniper rifle, TF and his cards, the list goes on and on. Karma's weapon was her fan and that made her Karma. It's like taking TF and making him new without his cards.


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Ansaa

Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris40610 View Post
i really think the fans were what made Karma who she is. If you think about the champions, their weapons are what made them stand out. For instance, Draven and his spinning axes, Jax and his lamp post, Yi and his many sword things, Kennen and his shuriken, Cait and her sniper rifle, TF and his cards, the list goes on and on. Karma's weapon was her fan and that made her Karma. It's like taking TF and making him new without his cards.
Her weapon (If you think about it) was her willpower. Her Mantra, Sould Shield, Spirit Bond, and Inner Resolve all come from her perseverance and devotion to herself and Ionia.

Her Q was from her fans though, but I expect them to change that. All in all, the fans were more to show how elegant she was rather than be used as a defining weapon.


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DrRowan

Member

03-08-2013

Even Lux has a wand/scepter thingy. I think Karma should still have her fans, atleast one. And if not give her some kind of Spectral Fan that manifests as part of an ability.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansaa View Post
Her weapon (If you think about it) was her willpower. Her Mantra, Sould Shield, Spirit Bond, and Inner Resolve all come from her perseverance and devotion to herself and Ionia.

Her Q was from her fans though, but I expect them to change that. All in all, the fans were more to show how elegant she was rather than be used as a defining weapon.
Well I'm sorry but as someone else already said, Lux's weapon is light but she still has a magic staff. Other champions like Veigar and Soraka could probably control their magic without any physical weapons but they still have them. Karma's fans were at least connected to her lore and it wasn't just a visual statement.

If anything, channelling will power from a Ionian standard seems a lot less logical.


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Afrocalypse

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
If anything, channelling will power from a Ionian standard seems a lot less logical.
They want her to be more representative of Ionia. I respect that thought, whether the execution of that is very logical or less logical. Way more logical to me though is that she channels her willpower by something she holds emotionally dear (fans) AND something that represents her homeland as a whole (standard).


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Raptamei

Senior Member

03-08-2013

STOP

WHlNING

You get a rework for your useless hipster champion so you're not making your team lose and you complain? Shut the fk up holy sht.


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Afrocalypse

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptamei View Post
STOP

WHlNING

You get a rework for your useless hipster champion so you're not making your team lose and you complain? Shut the fk up holy sht.
"So, besides the ones who will ignore my arguments and just say I am crying over nothing"
Thank you for your constructive thoughts.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrocalypse View Post
They want her to be more representative of Ionia. I respect that thought, whether the execution of that is very logical or less logical. Way more logical to me though is that she channels her willpower by something she holds emotionally dear (fans) AND something that represents her homeland as a whole (standard).
It isn't logical because it's supposed to be a "more readable source of power" and it just isn't. I understand what they're trying to do with it, I understand that they're trying to make her love for Ionia the source of her power (which is in my opinion a watering down of her personality but that's another issue and I've already discussed it in the main thread), but it definitely isn't as "readable" as her fans. Actually, were her fans even supposed to be the SOURCE of her power? I always thought they were just the vessel she chose to manifest her power, but definitely not the source of it. The source of her power was actually her mind. That she chose the fans, was, again, a trait of her personality that I found endearing.

I just don't get it. I don't know what made the guys at Riot think the fans were a problem. I can say I basically know for sure that if they released the same exact rework they showed us, with the addition of her fans, NO ONE would've complained. Literally, no one. I can't imagine anyone seeing it and saying something like "omg i can't believe u kept the fans riot! omg are u retarded the fans suck!!!". Maybe I'm exaggerating, but really, even the Karma "haters" never seemed to mention the fans as one of her main problems.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptamei View Post
STOP

WHlNING

You get a rework for your useless hipster champion so you're not making your team lose and you complain? Shut the fk up holy sht.
Huh, yeah, her visual design totally made teams lose. Yeah. Lol.

It's mainly because of people like you that she was reworked. You got what you wanted, so maybe it's time for you to shut up.


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