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So, about that Karma leak...

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Kita Ryoichi

Junior Member

03-21-2013

Seems that she is suited for more of an AP role with her q lol


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SirLapse

Senior Member

03-21-2013

Before you read, might as well follow this link as to find key elements where her kit is problematic. Well, it does a great job on its own.http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...d.php?t=293417 (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=293417)

Quote:
Glocta:
It's just as contraproductive to not know how any champion in your team works. Karmas kit isn't a special case there. Not knowing that champion X has a stun is not different from not knowing that Karmas Spirit Bond deals damage when going through enemys. And that's really the only ability slightly less self-explanatory. You see her heal once and you get it. You see her (empowered) Shield once and you get it. You see a red beam connecting between two champions - it has to be something negative. You see a green beam connecting - it has to be something positive. Her kit is not in any way hard to understand. Spirit Bond has quite a big range and is easily maintained btw.


You must not have skimmed through the last 40 pages or so, but I'll say it again.
A. When you have the Spirit Bond connected to a teammate in a situation where the shield is not available, it becomes very hard for the carry to tell if you want to commit to a fight or not. I've already mentioned before that many of these Karma players do not ping for what they want to do, but the necessity that you would even have to already cuts the effectiveness of how "obvious" a kit can be. Burden of knowledge in that she gains huge ability power from receiving damage. You'd need to have played against quite a few Karma players to know how much it takes to burst one down anyway. Already one anti-pattern that Riot would remove.

B. The slow it brings on an enemy is not an effective peel. Building tanky is to abuse your passive if anything. Not to mention that the slow isn't even effective until rank 5 (or Rylai's). Any form of gap-closing and that ADC is going to have to pray that the Karma has a Mantra stack ready to do SOMETHING.

C. Following point B, there's still that huge fact of the matter. ALL of her skills are lackluster without Mantra. You have to pick and choose. Variety is awesome and all, but thinking about how you could've optimally used each skill is difficult unless you've experienced the same situation of battle over and over (something that only people with large amounts of time could do). It's a defined anti-pattern of the game, so it's already something Riot didn't want to keep.

Quote:
Glocta:

Her Q doesn't have a tiny hitbox. It's simply more wide than far.
Swain is also a ranged caster and his range isn't great on his ultimate - what do you do? You go somewhat tanky. Can that be effectively done with Karma? Yes
Karma is a champion you (better) not go full AP with. Shes extremely potent late game by going that way.

That's nice, except two things.
A. Swain's ultimate is carrying a 75% Spell Vamp, not even involving other items. That already massively helps his survivability where he's facing close encounters. The tankiness of Swain derives entirely from it and on RoA, not all-out tank items like Warmog.

B. The main reason I'd ever bring a Karma with me are for the heal and the nuke shield. W? Not so much. The heal is what massively gets anyone to consider bringing her in the first place, and Soraka can already maintain healing at a much better rate while building AP. Karma's only early damage comes from Q, which makes early game quite a nightmare (something that is not much of a problem when AP mid). She's very item-reliant, so outplaying her practically cuts her capabilities very heavily (and this is lane phase, so junglers like Maokai who would normally have this problem as well can still catch up somehow). Again, something avoidable as AP mid, considering that you're only up against one other person and on occasion the opposing jungler.


Quote:
Glocta:

Not every champion has to be viable in Solo/Duo. What's the problem with a champ that's simply not good in Solo?

You are also not always gonna play Solo. Completely disregarding people who prefer to play with a hand-picked 5vs5 is ridiculous. Not to mention that you expect everyone in Solo to be bad enough, to not understand how Karma basically works after seeing it once - i already talked about that tho.

Mastering a champion != Knowing what a champion does.


Oh this. No, I'm not mentioning this as if the Karma is a bad player. I'm mentioning this if both teams actively know how to use their specific characters while only knowing the basics of each skill set that the rest of the players use. This means knowing Darius' Q range and potential damage. It's pretty straight-forward considering that he's using an axe. Karma? Yeah, you have to guess positioning more than you normally would with other supports thanks to much less CC power in comparison. Not to mention that most of your full power can only come once every 30 seconds (or twice every minute).

I am not talking about situational champs. Situational champs can be viable depending who they are up against, not based on the situation of battle in general (which Karma falls into).

Also, to finish up, I'd like to know how you believe most people play her. I'm focusing on the Support aspect, where your job is warding the map (which limits your ability to buy items by quite a bit) and helping your ADC. The most effective Karma players that I've seen so far go AP mid, not Support.
In the direction of AP mid, there are no worries over peeling a jungler coming at your ADC. That means that the multi-heal is no longer needed, and the tether doesn't need to help anyone but yourself.

I've already stated before that I didn't like the direction that this Redesign is going toward, but the validity of most these arguments against it aren't too effective, due to what Riot has already mentioned in their goals of how a champ should and should not be. I've already been arguing with people like ItemsGuy who consistently referenced Riot posts and how their idea of the champion is better, not building on how Karma's current state should be kept (they didn't defend it either).


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CS3Narutoi

Senior Member

03-21-2013

When I compare Live Karma to PBE Karma:
- Her spells used to affect both enemies and allies
- That team heal...
- Still no channel-canceling CC
Personal opinion on addressing the above issues:
- Her Q is like a super nuke now. It doesn't really make sense to add any healing or buff effects.
- W... Kinda miss the team tether... But I think the skill is pretty good as it is.
- For E, I think it would be nice to have a short silence like Blitz when mantra'd
Many people complained about the passive. Here is my idea:
- Passive is now part of ult.
- New passive can be that whenever Karma casts a spell, she heals the surrounding ally with the lowest health for a % of their missing health.
I think this would give back her heal, and also make her spells have the same duo effect as before.


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lanin

Junior Member

03-21-2013

Quote:
CS3Narutoi:
When I compare Live Karma to PBE Karma:
- Her spells used to affect both enemies and allies
- That team heal...
- Still no channel-canceling CC
Personal opinion on addressing the above issues:
- Her Q is like a super nuke now. It doesn't really make sense to add any healing or buff effects.
- W... Kinda miss the team tether... But I think the skill is pretty good as it is.
- For E, I think it would be nice to have a short silence like Blitz when mantra'd
Many people complained about the passive. Here is my idea:
- Passive is now part of ult.
- New passive can be that whenever Karma casts a spell, she heals the surrounding ally with the lowest health for a % of their missing health.
I think this would give back her heal, and also make her spells have the same duo effect as before.


For W, I think that it's perfectly fine the way it is.

For E, a silence would be nice, but Karma already has a slow, and a root. A silence would be nice, but I think that that's slightly overdoing it.

Q, agreed.

As for the passive, I totally agree! As it is now, I do like it more than her previous passive. However, I still feel that it's a very weak passive, especially when compared to other champs. *Cough* Darius, Cho, Shen, Ez etc. *Cough*.
It definitely should be built into the ult, rather than a passive. However, the passive heal should either A; be a rather weak heal that only heals 1 team member. Or, B; has a short cd, just so that it can't be spammed.
Either way, I do believe that Karma's new passive could definitely use a slight buff.


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MdevilM2

Senior Member

03-21-2013

New Karma's passive is fine. If anything it's too strong. It lets her, even if in the support position, snoball to a point where she can spam Mantra spells almost nonstop (cdr support items + scaling cdr passive.) It let's support Karma transition into a mor viable late game than old support Karma had and allows AP Karma to deal tons more damage as the game goes on.


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Kuru Nai Sah

Junior Member

03-21-2013

Personally I've loved Karma, but there has not been that obvious connection to Ionia than is evident with say Irelia or Big G.

The new art seems fabulous, infact I actually saved it to my desktop background xD. I am looking forward to the reworked "internal strife"- RiotRunaan (pt 3/thread), influenced champion! I would love to be part of the PBE just to check her out and provide a more proffessional opinion for she is among my more favored mages at the moment (whether support or carry). Ty creators and designers I particularly appreciate your attention to this champion.


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l Mike l

Recruiter

03-21-2013

When is the patch going to come out with the rework?


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RedtheCrimson

Member

03-22-2013

I can't say I like the Ultimate changes for Karma. Her whole kit centered around her ult, and it being available from the get-go with the ability to have 2 charges. Now it's much more useless, with a cooldown and only a single charge. You can't make the argument that it cost's no mana so a cd with 1 charge is completely fine, because it isn't; that was Karma's unique ability. I'm sorry Riot, but that was just dumb. And don't even try to make it better with her stupid new passive. Her old one was much more suitable for a strong, leader type character, granting additional strength in aspect to missing health. That would be a much more appropriate passive for Karma, especially the one you are trying to create.

I feel if you really must have a cd for her ult, then make her passive a part of her ult; every auto attack lowers its cd. This way you can have your terrible idea of a single charged ult with a cd, and can keep her much better passive of exponential strength.


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Airanya

Junior Member

03-22-2013

I much preferred her old passive to this one, I also think that you have been lazy with Sun Godess her most expensive skin, you could have at least applied some partical changes possibly to oranges/gold and greens when casting her spells. All in all the new Karma is amazing but I want to see more on the skins!


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MalevolentBeauty

Junior Member

03-22-2013

I don't think I like these changes, it looks to me that you've made her another morgana overall. She had so many unique abilities and mantra going to 1 charge? I think she loses a lot when her spells no longer affect enemies and allies, thats what made her so cool to play. For the player you had to make decisions, support, attack, cast on your allies or enemies, we're losing that aspect of her. I also liked her old passive better. I'll wait to play with her but as an old Karma player, right now I'm skeptical at best. I hope you didnt make some big mistakes with her.