So, about that Karma leak...

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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
it's like explaining you what a nine-tailed fox supposed to do! for someone who didn't read the chinese folklore I had no idea what a nine-tailed fox is all about, and had no idea who she is, from ahri's splash I just saw that she uses some kind of blue energy ball, I didn't know she's all about flirt and attraction, so samething goes about karma, I can't give you any direction besides her spiritual power, cuz I don't know what's her new lore is about.
Except if they had focused on the theme 'Karma' so that her actual playstyle completely gravitates towards 'What goes around', 'comes around'

There is NO excuse about lore whatsoever - in fact, saying people need to read lore isn't readable either, you are giving people homework, saying that they have to read lore before they are able to understand something.

If I tell you this entire character is about 'What goes around comes around' you instantly get the idea of what all the abilities are going to do: Redirect everything you are throwing at the target.

Readable? Hell yes, much like the fact you get Brand is going to literally burn you alive.

'Spiritual Mage'? Not readable, there could be a thousand things this character could do.

Do you understand that 'Karma' as a theme is extremely distinct and readable from an instant?

I even have a Rework that is completely about that, making Karma more thematically tied and way more readable as all of her abilities work to one common goal, would you like to see it?

EDIT: To we have to read Darius's lore to understand why he is going to chop us in pieces with his axe? No.

Do we have to read Mordekaiser's lore to understand why he doesn't really stomp around with his mace all that much but ends up making ghosts of his corpses? Yes, it's unreadable and burden of knowledge because you force someone to read the lore of the character before you actually really understand it, as in his lore they pretty much tell the tale of a lich rather than a dude who smashes around with his huge giant mace all day.

EDIT: Constant downvoter - could you explain why you are downvoting? Thank you!


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BlacklegZoro13

Junior Member

03-18-2013

I used to actually (believe it or not) main karma, but now i don't want to play her. Her Fan ability was the best ability but now she has it changed to a generic nuke skill shot. Very boring, and also you HAD to change her to look more skanky?... why is it that almost all of your female champions have to look like ****s, or at least have gigantic ****. Why can't you leave karma the way she was, just because your 12 yr old fans couldn't fap to her.

-Disappointing Fan


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Except if they had focused on the theme 'Karma' so that her actual playstyle completely gravitates towards 'What goes around', 'comes around'

There is NO excuse about lore whatsoever - in fact, saying people need to read lore isn't readable either, you are giving people homework, saying that they have to read lore before they are able to understand something.

If I tell you this entire character is about 'What goes around comes around' you instantly get the idea of what all the abilities are going to do: Redirect everything you are throwing at the target.

Readable? Hell yes, much like the fact you get Brand is going to literally burn you alive.

'Spiritual Mage'? Not readable, there could be a thousand things this character could do.

Do you understand that 'Karma' as a theme is extremely distinct and readable from an instant?

I even have a Rework that is completely about that, making Karma more thematically tied and way more readable as all of her abilities work to one common goal, would you like to see it?
but they stated that her new theme is a spititual leader, not a karma focused theme


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlacklegZoro13 View Post
I used to actually (believe it or not) main karma, but now i don't want to play her. Her Fan ability was the best ability but now she has it changed to a generic nuke skill shot. Very boring, and also you HAD to change her to look more skanky?... why is it that almost all of your female champions have to look like ****s, or at least have gigantic ****. Why can't you leave karma the way she was, just because your 12 yr old fans couldn't fap to her.

-Disappointing Fan
yeah changed from a generic cone ability to a generic skillshot


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
but they stated that her new theme is a spititual leader, not a karma focused theme
Their philosophy of creating a champion as good as possible: Thematically tied, as readable as it can be, providing counterplay.

Currently, she is NOT thematically tied and she is NOT readable (I hope we can agree about that now)

It's a fact they've said her new theme is spiritual leader - but do you now understand this is heavily in conflict with what they like to achieve with making a good design, why?

Because they could've chosen for a theme that makes Karma MORE thematically tied, WAY more readable while offering the same counterplay, if not more.

Do you understand that I'm all about 'living up to their own standards as much as they can' - pointing out what decisions they have made doesn't mean they have been the right one.

EDIT: The point of reworks is fixing a champion. Like you have said yourself by asking me 'AND WAS HER PREVIOUS DESIGN READABLE!!?!?!' (which the answer simply is 'No' to)

Her main problem was readable and theme - this was on her old design

New design - still extremely vague and unreadable kit-wise also lack of thematically tied due to her visual appearance telling us way other things while her gameplay is supposed to reflect 'tension and momentum'

Do you understand they could have done way better?

EDIT: Constant downvoter - would be awesome if you could explain why you leave a downvote, thanks!


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Their philosophy of creating a champion as good as possible: Thematically tied, as readable as it can be, providing counterplay.

Currently, she is NOT thematically tied and she is NOT readable (I hope we can agree about that now)

It's a fact they've said her new theme is spiritual leader - but do you now understand this is heavily in conflict with what they like to achieve with making a good design, why?

Because they could've chosen for a theme that makes Karma MORE thematically tied, WAY more readable while offering the same counterplay, if not more.

Do you understand that I'm all about 'living up to their own standards as much as they can' - pointing out what decisions they have made doesn't mean they have been the right one.
partly I do understand you but they also mentioned that they couldn't tie her previous apperence and her theme. and that from the start she meant to be the spiritual leader of Ionia. The problem is people tied too much with her old appearence which was mistaken from the beginning


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
partly I do understand you but they also mentioned that they couldn't tie her previous apperence and her theme. and that from the start she meant to be the spiritual leader of Ionia. The problem is people tied too much with her old appearence which was mistaken from the beginning
You are not hearing what I say: They say themselves that they opt to create a champion that is as readable as it can be while being as thematically tied as it can be.

If 'spiritual leader' is less readable or less convincing to be thematically tied than the theme 'Karma' they could've easily chosen for, it's pretty obvious the 'Karma' theme is superior because it lives up to their own standards more than the actual 'spiritual leader' possibly ever can.

Do you understand that? Like I've said, they've made decisions, doesn't mean they've made the right ones.

Constant downvoter: Would be awesome if you could explain why you are downvoting - thank you!


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-18-2013

you talking about that it would be better if they tied her to the karma theme instead of the spiritual leader because it's more readable?


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
you talking about that it would be better if they tied her to the karma theme instead of the spiritual leader because it's more readable?
Readability is extremely important in a game that has over a 100+ champions.

Previously Karma's problem was 'nobody knows how to play with me' - why? Due to the fact she was unreadable.

Goal of Karma Rework: Making her as thematically tied and readable as possible.

My answer: Yes - it would've been better if they have capitalized on the most readable theme as possible that also directly and obviously represent what she is supposed to represent, starting with the fact that her actual name is Karma.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Demi, from Zileas himself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
*

Burden of Knowledge
This is a VERY common pattern amongst hardcore novice game designers. This pattern is when you do a complex mechanic that creates gameplay -- ONLY IF the victim understands what is going on. Rupture is a great example -- with Rupture in DOTA, you receive a DOT that triggers if you, the victim, choose to move. However, you have no way of knowing this is happening unless someone tells you or unless you read up on it online... So the initial response is extreme frustration. We believe that giving the victim counter gameplay is VERY fun -- but that we should not place a 'burden of knowledge' on them figuring out what that gameplay might be. That's why we like Dark Binding and Black Shield (both of which have bait and/or 'dodge' counter gameplay that is VERY obvious), but not Rupture, which is not obvious.

In a sense, ALL abilities have some burden of knowledge, but some have _a lot more_ -- the ones that force the opponent to know about a specific interaction to 'enjoy' the gameplay have it worst.

Good particle work and sound -- good 'salesmanship' -- will reduce burden of knowledge (but not eliminate it). We still would not do Rupture as is in LoL ever, but I would say that the HON version of Rupture, with it's really distinct sound effect when you move, greatly reduces the burden of knowledge on it.

In summary, all mechanics have some burden of knowledge, and as game designers, we seek to design skills in a way that gives us a lot of gameplay, for not too much burden of knowledge. If we get a lot more gameplay from something, we are willing to take on more burden of knowledge -- but for a given mechanic, we want to have as little burden of knowledge as possible.
'Spiritual leader' tells us way less giving the player more homework before they can enjoy themselves/understand what's happening - Burden of Knowledge.

'Karma' - entire playstyle revolves around redirecting anything that's thrown at the target - way more readable, lowest burden of knowledge.