So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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EquinoxElite

Junior Member

03-18-2013

To be completely honest, the only thing that I'm actually irritated at is the fact they took that heal out. Sure, she can heal herself similar to Fiddlesticks while snaring her target if they don't break out of range, but As a support the heal would have been superior. I dunno how many times I've saved my ADC and then slain the one attacking him because of it. It really keeps from using "b" all the time if the enemy team has a really aggressive bot. The new make of Karma is defiantly leaning toward AP with a hint of support. I really enjoyed the balance of support and damage output the old Karma has. :/


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chumbler

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by EquinoxElite View Post
To be completely honest, the only thing that I'm actually irritated at is the fact they took that heal out. Sure, she can heal herself similar to Fiddlesticks while snaring her target if they don't break out of range, but As a support the heal would have been superior. I dunno how many times I've saved my ADC and then slain the one attacking him because of it. It really keeps from using "b" all the time if the enemy team has a really aggressive bot. The new make of Karma is defiantly leaning toward AP with a hint of support. I really enjoyed the balance of support and damage output the old Karma has. :/
Heals are pretty much one of the worst design elements you can put in a game like this. Shields or other forms of active defense are much, much better for creating actual gameplay. There is zero gameplay involved in heals.


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Whyumai

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by EquinoxElite View Post
To be completely honest, the only thing that I'm actually irritated at is the fact they took that heal out. Sure, she can heal herself similar to Fiddlesticks while snaring her target if they don't break out of range, but As a support the heal would have been superior. I dunno how many times I've saved my ADC and then slain the one attacking him because of it. It really keeps from using "b" all the time if the enemy team has a really aggressive bot. The new make of Karma is defiantly leaning toward AP with a hint of support. I really enjoyed the balance of support and damage output the old Karma has. :/
yeah. she's definitely not a support champion anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chumbler View Post
Heals are pretty much one of the worst design elements you can put in a game like this. Shields are much, much better for creating actual gameplay. There is zero gameplay involved in heals.
I completely and entirely disagree. Heals are fun, meaningful, and useful. It's hard to shields to be truly meaningful, partly because It's quite easy to waste a shield.

Heals are generally never wasted.


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Nightfallyn

Senior Member

03-18-2013

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Originally Posted by chumbler View Post
We already know that her new skills do more than one thing without mantra, so they are by default better than her current skills without mantra. That was in fact the biggest problem with her that people were either too dumb to realize or refused to accept: Her current skills are absolute garbage without mantra (and her W is garbage even with it).
Yes they are more versatile but until we see numbers, can't say if they are more effective or not. Thats why I said we will have to wait and see. If the numbers on the non mantra'd stuff is good then 1 charge may be doable. If the numbers are bad, then we are right back where we started.


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ChromeFalcon

Member

03-18-2013

She was never a real support champion.

Karma needed farm to be useful.


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chumbler

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfallyn View Post
Yes they are more versatile but until we see numbers, can't say if they are more effective or not. Thats why I said we will have to wait and see. If the numbers on the non mantra'd stuff is good then 1 charge may be doable. If the numbers are bad, then we are right back where we started.
You'd have to try really hard to make her new kit's skills worse than her old ones. The numbers on her old skills were not good, and I highly doubt that the new numbers will be worse, and even if they were, the new functions more than make up for it.


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
A WILD SCARIZARD APPEARS!



Hey dudes! As you might know by now, i'm heading up the Karma Relaunch from the design side, and i bring good news - we are changing her kit. While i don't want to go too in-depth just yet, i wanted to drop in to this thread and answer this question, as it's one i've heard a lot and am sure will continue to be a concern.

Karma was re-imagined in our eyes as a support-mage. Think Lux, Morgana, Orianna - the kinds of characters that scale just as well with ability power as they do cooldown reduction and provide a lot to the team in the way of supporting their efforts. As a support-mage, she won't necessarily have the exact same specialized strengths as say Nami or Thresh (who were primarily designed as duo-lane support champions), but brings a mixed bag of damage and utility that we hope will leave you able to affect the outcome of teamfights and skirmishes alike no matter what lane you want to take her.

I'll be back with specifics on her abilities and mechanics as we get closer to her PBE release.
that what exactly her direct designer said


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Needles K

Senior Member

03-18-2013

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Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
you picking a certain campion because he's either OP or got some advantages over other champions of the same role,
Not really. People pick Graves, but I don't think anyone would argue that he's OP. Heck, Ashe and Varus are extremely similar, and neither is considered OP. Shyvana and Mundo are both tanky bruisers who are great at counterjungling but somewhat weak at ganking who become extremely hard to kill later on. It's less true this season, but last season the choice between Shyv and Mundo was largely one of flavor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
cuz they got totally different kits! ryze is more focused on this skill spam and his passive allows him to do it if used currectly while karma's kit will be focused on her mantra, and her passive rewards her agressive gameplay to get the best out of her kits, you can't compare a single ability on 2 champions, it's all about the whole set of abilities on each champion and how they synergize to make a champion unique! you take zed's E and kat's W, an AoE damaging ability, does the champs feel and play exactly the same? totally NO!
My point isn't that she's exactly like Ryze. My point is that there's nothing at all unique about her. Her skills are just less-powerful versions of other champions' skills. There's nothing left that makes Karma herself. The old Karma's theme of "balance" wasn't executed perfectly, but it was *distinct*. The new Karma's kit might be executed better, but its theme is "Here are a bunch of parts we had lying around."

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
what made karma that unique?! a cone heal?
Cone heal that becomes stronger as the team becomes weaker, passive that makes Karma stronger as she becomes weaker, pass-through tether that both buffs and debuffs, Mantra system. All gone, with photocopies of other champs' skills taking their place.

The boom-shield was pretty core, and it's still around, but it was probably the least unique thing about Karma.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
that what exactly her direct designer said
Could you actually respond to my previous post dedicated to you - I asked you a question and no offense but it looks like you are avoiding to answer it.


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Nightfallyn

Senior Member

03-18-2013

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Originally Posted by chumbler View Post
You'd have to try really hard to make her new kit's skills worse than her old ones. The numbers on her old skills were not good, and I highly doubt that the new numbers will be worse, and even if they were, the new functions more than make up for it.

I have to see it first. I have seen riot over nerf - over buff, and release champs that were broken from day one weather too weak or too strong. Nothing yet indicates where the new kit will fall. They have already said the reason they reduced the the mantra charge to 1 is cause her new "Mantra'd" skills too hard to balance with 2 charges. That means the non mantra'd ones are significantly weaker. Again I say it will all depend on what the actual numbers and ratios are.