So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Wuzalun

Junior Member

03-18-2013

Oh so I guess im supposed to post this here. Initiating angry mode.

In real life, Karma is idea that if you're a terrible person, something terrible happens to you. What goes around comes around.

In the game, if you harass Karma, she gains AP and kills you (unfortunately that was just a concept and she turned out to be a little underpowered).

Now its what? Lower cooldowns by a basic attack? What does that have to do with karma?

IF YOU ARE GOING TO REPLACE A CHAMPION DEFINING MECHANIC WITH SOMETHING THAT HAS NO PLACE ON A CHAMPION OF THIS NATURE, RENAME HER BOB.


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ThermoFusion

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Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotRunaan View Post
We also wanted to hold onto much of Karma's characterization. She's a strong leader and a mystic who stands apart from other champions.
Can someone explain how her new art and kit maintain the notion that Karma "stands apart from other champions"? Becuse I honestly don't see it. I'm serious, is there something I'm missing?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
mostly of the people who criticize her new kit are looking only and the things that got removed from it and assuming she's bad without focusing on the tradeoffs
You are right. I am focused on what was removed. But my argument is not that the new kit is bad, my argument is that then new kit does not replace what was removed. If I wanted a completely new kit that was fun to play, there are 100+ other champions to pick from. What I wanted was the fun aspects of Karma to be tweaked to be more competively viable. What I got was the to a completely new design that does not include much of what I liked about Karma.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
It's just about 'what people like' and would've like to see in her new Rework - Riot should've focused in making her as good as she can be design-wise, which is a character that has counterplay, is thematically tied and is readable.

They haven't delivered on that at all, I can explain if you want, I've done multiple times in this thread on a constructive level as well - it's not about the cone heal or a shield, they were unreadable abilities that had to go.
I agree, and do explain if you will. You'd probably say it better than I could.


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FauxMustache

Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Severian NA View Post
Huh.

Certainly not as bad as I feared, but I will miss the cone percentage heal. The changes to E and W does compensate for that, and I can see how they might even be better in general. Still, W could be a bit more dynamic. Without the numbers it is impossible to form a real impression of her, so I can't really say what I think.

Also, I can see from the responses made by Riot that there is more depth to this kit than I at first thougth. It does seem a bit one-dimensional on the surface, but I hope I will be pleasantly suprised.

I can see that there has been a real drive to keep what I/we love about Karma's gameplay, and I appreciate that greatly. It makes it easier to swallow what is lost or lessened. Thank you! I can't overstate that.

-------

Yet. It really suprises me, how galling the loss of her old passive is. I knew it would be a blow, but it is like you removed a piece of her soul. Karma felt unique and her passive had a large part in that. I didn't fully realize how much it mattered it seems.

Xelnath speaks very strongly about how this passive is an anathema to the vision :P I appreciate that honesty and realize that indicates it wasn't just removed on a whim (which I also appreciate). As a LoL player I'm a noob. I am Bronze IV. My words don't carry much weight. Still, I'm going to call you out on a few things, Xelnath.

I agree, a kit encouraging you to be low HP is a bad thing. The times the passive made me feel like I should be low HP wasn't a good feeling. It just feels wrong, as you say. But that was a minor hitch when I started learning her. I quickly came to my senses. The passive is rarely worth being low HP. Of course, I consider the fact that I benefit from low health, but it is a far stretch from damning me to forever live on the edge to exploit my passive. I try to heal up whenever I can.

Was I wrong? Should I have taken turret hits to maximise my AP? Is her passive really forcing you to play at low hp? Did I play her poorly if I didn't aim to be at least half dead most of the time?

And about the ranged caster thing, I won't presume to dictate how you design your game. I am a bit suprised that you feel so strongly about it though. I didn't feel like I was a ranged troll because of that passive. If I was low HP, I usually died if something looked my way and my cooldowns were up or I made a mistake, reacted too slow, etc. If I had Tryndamere on my ass, I was screwed no matter what I did. I just melted if the gear was somewhat even. Many melee were scary, but I still have nightmares about him >.<

Yes, I see that it is problematic in general, but I can't see how it is an absolute nono. Taking a typical melee thing and putting it on a caster type really makes a mark, and Karma is perfect for this. Are you really aiming to turn her into a squishy mage in every respect? Can't a mage have some sort of strength boost when the straits are dire? Are you sure you're not overdoing the streamlining? Let her be the exception *.*

Right you are, I feel very strongly about this. It is a major change to what makes Karma fun, what makes her Karma. I have had enough of those :P Karma is a champion with an exceptional inner strength. Was that removed from her concept? Is she just a spiritual power mage now?
And making her inner flame manifest like this new Q... >.< Seriously. That is Brands inner flame, more like :P I wish you'd rename that ability...
But I digress.

I realize that this has been said time and time again, but it is vital. I feel you are making a huge mistake in removing this passive. When I play other characters with shields and/or heals, they do the same thing, dying or not. Karma felt different. As your situation worsened, she was empowered. It bolstered your spirit when you needed it the most. That did not change the fact that your situation was deteriorating. It was not a "Yay, I'm dying!" kind of thing. It gave me hope and determination when I had to face unfavourable odds. It is such an important part of the appeal Karma has, that I implore you to reconsider, or to figure out some other way of giving her a tangible manifestation of indominable will in the face of adversity. If you don't like this way for whatever reason, I want to retain that part of her.


So. I don't want a mechanic that makes me value low hp over full hp. That would not be fun at all. What I don't get is why she can't have an edge as her situation grows more desperate. If this old passive wasn't doing this in a good way, is it impossible, or bad design, to figure out a different way? Pretty please?

Please give me your thoughts if you can. @Xelnath @Scarizard @Morello
Im totally in love with you right now! You're right in that they should not of given her passive away to the new one. The new one does not seem to give her truly enough help to make difference in tight spots as her old one did. But her old one was also limited because it only helped in tight spots. Maybe both together, i dont see why this would be so strong as taric has essentially the same thing with his q and passive. Still excited for her though!


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EquinoxElite

Junior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Old Karma had issues. What were they?

Karma’s kit was in a weird place, but her ultimate was especially problematic. Her base abilities didn’t feel impactful and only felt effective when supercharged by Mantra. On top of that, when Karma had two charges of Mantra, we had to make both of them weaker to compensate for players double casting empowered spells.

The changes we made to Karma’s kit focused on making each decision fun and meaningful while giving her abilities the focus they needed to perform her intended role. We kept the “empowering”-type gameplay of Mantra, but instead of waiting around for it to recharge, Karma’s basic attacks and abilities now lower Mantra’s cooldown. This rewards aggressive play so you can “buyback” her ultimate. Also, we gave Mantra a single charge to pump extra power into each cast. We also made sure Mantra empowers Karma’s abilities in drastically different ways, leading to more impactful decision-making and a better feeling of accomplishment when you pull off the right move at the right time.


Why was she hard to place in team comps?

Karma had the offensive tools to support her team in small skirmishes but not the powerful defensive abilities she needed to protect a team. Also, her all-purpose abilities are so broad they never felt like the right choice in any situation. All in all, Karma lacked direction.


Why isn’t Karma fun?

The effectiveness of Karma’s abilities relied too heavily on your teammates knowing all their nuances. No matter how hard you were carrying with Karma, your teammates had to be just as good with her for you to be super effective. When an ally’s confused about whether or not he should run from or pass through your Spirit Bond, we probably made a mistake.


What did we like about Karma?

Despite all the Mantra hate we’ve got going on, we actually think the concept is pretty kickass. It’s unique and character-defining to old Karma, and augmenting her abilities with an immense surge of Ionian will is visually and thematically fun. We also liked how Karma could turn the tables on her opponents with abilities that provided defensive bonuses and had hidden offensive power. Finally, Spirit Bond’s “clothesline” gameplay is really cool, but it’d work better on a tank champion that has an easier time jumping into the fray.


Karma’s new role

Originally envisioned as a support, Karma’s fringe successes actually came from players using her in the top or mid lanes as an AP burst mage with support abilities, much like Zilean or Morgana. We like this direction and want to encourage you to boost both her offensive and support abilities by building AP. We also want to make sure she can hold her own as a solo or with a lane partner.

Finally, we’ve updated her skills so allies are reliant on Karma, but Karma’s not reliant on them. She’s got enough power at her fingertips to feel strong as a mage or as a support without teammates having to work in perfect concert for you to be effective.


So without further ado… here’s Karma’s new kit:


[aws3]news/March_2013/03_15_2013_Karma_Relaunch/Karma_Passive.jpg[/aws3]

Passive: Gathering Fire – Hitting enemy champions with Karma’s spells and basic attacks lower Mantra’s cooldown.


[aws3]news/March_2013/03_15_2013_Karma_Relaunch/Karma_R.jpg[/aws3]

R: Mantra – Empowers Karma’s abilities, adding an extra effect to the next ability cast.


[aws3]news/March_2013/03_15_2013_Karma_Relaunch/Karma_Q.jpg[/aws3][aws3]news/March_2013/03_15_2013_Karma_Relaunch/Karma_Q_Empowered.jpg[/aws3]

Q: Inner Flame – Skillshot that deals magic damage and slows enemies in an area.
  • Empowered by Mantra: Soulflare – Increases damage and leaves behind a zone that slows and, after a brief delay, explodes for AoE damage.


[aws3]news/March_2013/03_15_2013_Karma_Relaunch/Karma_W.jpg[/aws3][aws3]news/March_2013/03_15_2013_Karma_Relaunch/Karma_W_Empowered.jpg[/aws3]

W: Focused Resolve – Enemy-targeted tether that deals damage over time. If the tether is unbroken after a short duration, the tethered target is rooted in place.
  • Empowered by Mantra: Renewal – Deals bonus damage and heals Karma for the duration of the tether.


[aws3]news/March_2013/03_15_2013_Karma_Relaunch/Karma_E.jpg[/aws3][aws3]news/March_2013/03_15_2013_Karma_Relaunch/Karma_E_Empowered.jpg[/aws3]

E: Inspire – Shields an ally and grants them a short speed boost.
  • Empowered by Mantra: Defiance – Enemies near the shielded ally are damaged while nearby allies are shielded and granted a short speed boost.

This is grand and all. But the one charge mantra seems a little too less. While on my Karma now, I've been wanting 3 charges but instead you lowered it? I know her passive is to lower the CD of her mantra, but if you're playing support, the ADC isn't going to want you to continue to hit to recharge mantra faster. I feel like this will 'cause a lot of conflict in solo que ranked matches with a ADC not knowing of Karma's changes. Also, I feel like the Spirit bond should have been kept the way it was. Only difference was that it heals Karma while slowing. It was very nice for catching up to players. Now you have to manta "e" just for us to gain speed. And on the way chasing we won't have time to actually hit and recharge to give final blows with a mantra charge. And the new "w" as a skill shot seems almost too tricky. It'll be almost hard to land late game unlike snares.


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Needles K

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
patience summoner, you have a good counter argument, but the difference is her new kit looks cool on paper, and i'm not really judging, i'm just assuming she'll be better because I don't think Riot put that much effort to keep her in the state she's now. mostly of the people who criticize her new kit are looking only and the things that got removed from it and assuming she's bad without focusing on the tradeoffs
Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "better." Here's my take:

What got removed from her kit: Everything that was remotely unique.

The tradeoff: She will now be more popular, because there's really nothing distinguishing her from any other champion.

So, I mean, yay for all the people who get a new champ they might enjoy. But I wish they would have reworked Karma's unique kit to make it viable instead of copy-pasting a bunch of abilities from other champs.


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Wolven Swiftwind

Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
another crybaby
another fail troll.Ive played karma since shes been out I have a right to this opinion


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
You are right. I am focused on what was removed. But my argument is not that the new kit is bad, my argument is that then new kit does not replace what was removed. If I wanted a completely new kit that was fun to play, there are 100+ other champions to pick from. What I wanted was the fun aspects of Karma to be tweaked to be more competively viable. What I got was the to a completely new design that does not include much of what I liked about Karma.
that's why it's called a rework and not a nerf/buff or a small changes like taric getting, I assume if her old kit had some fundamental flaws they couldn't just tweak it to make her viable, and that's why they remade her, and again you have to play her first to judge about her gameplay-wise and how she feels, maybe she's not much of a different by the feel


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Wolven Swiftwind

Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThermoFusion View Post
This. A hundred times this!

They virtually changed everything about her except the name. And now the name is totally out of place. This new champ does not have a 'karma' or balance theme, nor does this new champ resemble the original Karma character in any meaningful way. I would be so much happier if they would just admit they wanted Karma removed from the game, and give this new kit the new name it merits.

Because really, I don't dislike this new kit (except the Leblanc style tether, I dislike that part). I'm sure this new design will be fun to play. What bothers me is the pretense that this new thing is Karma.

Give this new champ design a flashy new name to match the flashy new image she's got going, and I'd unlock that champ and even pay RP to unlock a skin!

But to take away everything that I liked about Karma and tell me this is supposed to be an improvement over the original... it makes me wonder if anyone working on this rework actually liked Karma... or had ever spoken to someone that does.
I agree with you completely


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Needles K View Post
Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "better." Here's my take:

What got removed from her kit: Everything that was remotely unique.

The tradeoff: She will now be more popular, because there's really nothing distinguishing her from any other champion.

So, I mean, yay for all the people who get a new champ they might enjoy. But I wish they would have reworked Karma's unique kit to make it viable instead of copy-pasting a bunch of abilities from other champs.
if she won't have anything unique about her why would people pick her over any other champion?
P.S. fyi karma's current passive was once ryze's passive and got changed to what he got now, and ryze got a very unique playstyle, so I think you don't have to be that worried about it, Riot probably know what they're doing, and if it's not working the way they expected there's always a place to improve and change


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Whyumai

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post


Karma’s new role

Originally envisioned as a support, Karma’s fringe successes actually came from players using her in the top or mid lanes as an AP burst mage with support abilities, much like Zilean or Morgana. We like this direction and want to encourage you to boost both her offensive and support abilities by building AP. We also want to make sure she can hold her own as a solo or with a lane partner.
Meanwhile why would attempt to emulate Morgana or Zilean with a champion? Both have low win rates and low popularity. Zilean's in about 1% of games and Morgana's not much better at about 4%.

That's fairly low.

In ranked Platinum Zilean is almost never played (averages less than 1%), Morgana is around 2-3% which is also quite low.

I just don't get the though process. Hey, better make remake Karma so she's like two other champions that aren't played much. That will fix the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
that's why it's called a rework and not a nerf/buff or a small changes like taric getting, I assume if her old kit had some fundamental flaws they couldn't just tweak it to make her viable, and that's why they remade her, and again you have to play her first to judge about her gameplay-wise and how she feels, maybe she's not much of a different by the feel
He's been significantly nerfed as a support with more nerfs this patch.

They are just carving up the corpse of support Taric now.