So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Letler

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveDungeon View Post
Actually the E is also a lulu clone. Sheild that gives speed boost, minus the ap.
Right, I guess the highlight is the mantra effect since the shield spreads out to allies.


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Letler

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Do they realize that they just grabbed skills from other champions and threw them on Karma??


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IcyyDreamz

Senior Member

03-18-2013

I wish they would keep the fan AoE on Q, make it look like shes firing a barrage of her remade Q and on mantra it would make the AoE slow


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
By the way this also has entirely to do with theme.

Why is Ashe not generic in terms of mechanics? Because she has the theme of frost archer, you know why that makes her interesting? Because it enables to be a character that can shoot a giant freakin' arrow of ice that stuns people.

Why is Karma now generic? Her theme is muddied, there is no central characteristic outstanding theme which converts her into a 'well ive got some abilities slapped on to me' design.

It was entirely my point with 'the feeling that people have that karma rework is entirely a new generic mage champion and not Karma at all'

All of these things are narrowly associated with each other dude and you can break it into science/solid analysis of where the problem lies
you don't judge design by taking each ability seperately, it's all the abilities combined together to a kit and how they interacts


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Siigari

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Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.
Quite frankly, why don't you let the players decide?

We've had Karma the way she is for a long time and you haven't "removed" her passive. You're doing it now because she's being reworked and you can say that with a semi-straight face because of the rework. Not even I think you really believe that, you just want to push your own motivation.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
you don't judge design by taking each ability seperately, it's all the abilities combined together to a kit and how they interacts
Which is a misleading bunch of abilities that have nothing to do with her theme. That's why this rework is bad.

EDIT: I can explain, if you like me to.


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Whyumai

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveDungeon View Post
Uhm. W.T.F. Why is her new kit so freakin close to lulu. a line skillshot that slows, a shield that increases speed? we have seen this all before how is this an improvement when you just removed the things that she had which were unique. and now she has a freaking morg ult as a normal skill.

she will either be boring. or op. i am disappoint. her ally tether and sheild were great and mostly unique, i dont get why you would ruin that to give her lame repeated spells. gg riot.
Karma won't have Lulu's hard cc. I honestly believe this will mean that Karma will be a far inferior version of Lulu as a support.

I think you'll find Karma is supposed to be a AP mid rather than a support. I think she'll be reasonably good as a AP mid.

On one hand, I think Karma will see more play now, on the other hand, I think she'll be pretty useless as a support.

It's disappointing to see the death of a support champion but it's got to be better than how Karma is now.

Visual upgrade looks good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Letler View Post
Do they realize that they just grabbed skills from other champions and threw them on Karma??
that's true of most new champions now days though.


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Kekisha

Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Featherfox View Post
I made this post in another thread, but I want to post it here as well. I'm clearly not understanding the position as to why Karma should remain the way she is now - and I honestly do want an answer to this question. To that end - here's the post. I warn you, it is long.

I don't want circular arguments, I don't want to go back and forth about supports having money to buy items, to supports don't have money since they need wards. I'll present what I see here, and you can then tell me how the weaknesses I've experienced in-game when playing Karma can be off-set by anything other than the enemy's lack of awareness on how to play against her.

Karma's Passive: I'm never a fan of anything that relies on you risking your life in order to have a gain. However, as Karma's healing functions better the lower your health is, this passive works amazingly for her kit; the weaker she is, the harder she is to kill. Still, beyond the lack of awareness that people have over just how strong Karma gets as her life goes down (Free Rabadons - yay), when a person combats Karma with knowledge of how her other powers work, this passive does little to help her beyond desperate situations.

Still - it's a much better passive than Zyra's!

Karma's Q
Heavenly Wave: Range 400, Damage 70/110/150/190/230/270 (+0.6) magic damage in a cone
Mantra Boost: heal allies in the cone for 35/55/75/95/115/135 plus 5% (+0.02%) of their missing Health.

Sona's Q
Hymn of Valor: Range 650, Damage 50/100/150/200/250 (+0.7) magic damage to 2 targets (prioritizing champions)
Power Chord Staccato - Range 550, Damage (8 + 10 x Sona's character level) x 2

Lux's Q
Light Binding: Range 1175, Damage 60/110/160/210/260 (+0.7) magic damage to up to 2 targets.

Sona is revered as a lane-bully as a support champion because the poke from her Hymn and her Staccato is very strong. However, Karma deals slightly better damage until level 5. Lux, as a mid-lane opponent against AP Karma, obtains damage parity as early as level 3, and maintains damage superiority from that point on. Karma never regains her "damage edge" from level 1. Furthermore - range 400!!! The team-heal element is amazing, but it won't save you from a Fiddlesticks Ultimate - and it's definitely a poor team strategy to group up if the enemy has Amumu, Sejuani (I saw her referenced earlier on this thread), or other AoE CC/Damage compositions. At this point, I'll be reminded of Karma's E - which we'll be getting to in a moment.

Karma's W
Spirit Bond - Range 800 (yay!) Damage 80/125/170/215/260/305 (+0.7) magic damage
CC: enemy anchors are slowed by 10/12/14/16/18/20%
Buff: allied anchors move 10/12/14/16/18/20% faster
Mantra Bonus: double the effect of the movement speed modifiers.

Lulu's Q
Glitterlance - Range 925, Damage 80/125/170/215/260 (+0.5) magic damage
CC: slowing enemies hit by 80%

Lux's E
Lucent Singularity - Range 1100, Damage 60/105/150/195/240 (+0.6) magic damage
CC: slows enemies by 20/24/28/32/36%

Now this is an ability. I know other people like Karma's shields and fans, but this power is the reason I bought the champ, and was determined to learn support with her. The power this ray-beam has is incredible! However - the beam must be "tethered" to a target, either friendly or enemy. Also (and here's the nightmare people refuse to acknowledge) the beam only does damage to people who "cross" it. Tethering the beam on your enemy will do 0 damage to that enemy. If it weren't for this power specifically, Karma wouldn't even be able to get in range to hurt opponents as an AP champ. As a support, this is an excellent counter-gank tool, chase tool, and escape tool all built into one funky pink laser! This is the superior source of Karma's damage, and is rendered useless if the enemy understands just how the laser works. You can't target the laser on your enemy, you must "work" the laser so it "bumps" your enemy while it's stuck on something else. Thus, as a laning tool it's only useful for farming, and as a support tool it's more useful for it's CC than it's damage. The only time you'll even see potential gain from the damage on this ability is in teamfights - where the chaos of events may prevent the enemy from being aware of it's presence, or (hopefully even better) the laser can create a zoning tool to help shape the combat in your favour. Again, a lack of awareness on the ray's abilities by the enemy gives you a great edge, but a similar lack of awareness on your team can cause you to lose that same edge in battle.

Karma's E
Soul Shield - Range 650, Buff 80/120/160/200/240/280 (+0.8) damage absorbed
Mantra Bonus: 80/120/160/200/240/280 (+0.8) magic damage

Janna's E
Eye of the Storm - Range 800, Buff 80/120/160/200/240 (+0.9) damage absorbed
Buff 14/23/32/41/50 Attack Damage

Lux's W
Prismatic Barrier - Range 1075, Buff 80/105/130/155/180 (+0.35) damage absorbed, can be applied 2 times to the same target for a (potential) maximum shield absorbing 160/210/260/310/360 (+0.7) damage.

This is the power I see most loved by Karma fans - the powerful AoE nuking shield. Place this on your Malphite/Volibear/suicidal Graves and watch the enemy team cry as you unleash pain while keeping the initiator alive! As a support tool this power is incredibly strong, and the poke is nice too. However, as a mid-lane tool this will often be only as effective as Lux's shield. An enemy who's aware of the shield's use will know to keep their distance from all of Karma's powers. Karma will have an easy time farming using her mana-hungry abilities, but so will the enemy. Karma can use a combination of her shield and her fans to "prevent" last-hitting while clearing the minion waves, but doing so consumes all of her mantra points for effects that just dealt no damage to the enemy. The radius of Karma's explosion from her shield is only 300 - making this ability the shortest damage-dealing range of all her powers, and she has to spend a mantra point to unleash it. Despite it's decent damage, the laser outpaces the damage potential of this power, and doesn't even cost mantra to use. We've already covered the annoyance that power provides in dealing effective damage.

I actually chose different supports for a reason when demonstrating what Karma can do. Karma actually does the job of several supports in one kit - a powerful combination that's balanced by her short range. I have wrecked bot-lane with Karma before, and I've seen other Karma players wreck bot-lane with a variety of carries at their sides. However, in almost every instance I've watched/played in victory, the enemy either was unaware of Karma's range, or lacked the vision to predict Karma's next move. Since a support's primary role is vision, both these points are failures on the enemy, not a boost to the Karma player. Skill is a factor that can't be quantifiably judged (though we do try). Invariably, one player will always be better than the other, and if the Karma player is the better-skilled player, then there's little argument on who's going to win. My post here is trying to showcase what happens when skill is equal. The Karma player faces an opponent who understands the champ, and knows Karma's weaknesses. When skill is removed, Karma is revealed as a 300-range nuke champ who baits her team into AoE-based disasters that can mimic the abilities that other supports are revered for.

Furthermore, please note that I included the level-dependant advancement for a reason. Karma "loses" all level advantages early, and doesn't regain them until much later. There is a huge difference between a level 1 advantage and a level 9 advantage. Karma is dependant on keeping up with her enemy. If Karma is denied even slightly (by jungle pressure or just good counter-play) then Karma may never catch up. Her own kit creates an exploitable weakness due to her 6 level mechanic on her powers (as she has no "ultimate"). Also, note that Karma has no ultimate, while Lux has a quick-firing Final Spark, Sona has a Crescendo, Lulu has a Wild Growth, and Janna has a Monsoon. Karma gives up a "game changing" power, so she can do an extra 20 to 60 damage for an acquired "level 6" power.

Finally, the arguments about Mantra! Mantra takes 30/25/20 seconds to recharge, and up to 2 charges can be held in storage. Assuming max CDR (since I agree that supports CAN afford that amount while still supporting effectively with wards), Karma can reach 12 second recharge on her mantra. Also, Mantra can last for 8 seconds before the charge is wasted. Thus, clever Karma tacticians can squeeze out 3 Mantra charges in one teamfight. This allows for one shield nuke, one super-slow laser, and one heal. After that, Karma's done. If the laser is not how you wish to cripple the team, then you can save one mantra charge for a second heal. Still, Karma's finished after that - teamfight will almost always be over by then. Mantra is such a limiting factor with it's current count. Aside from one spectacular burst in a teamfight, it's rather weak when compared to laning or supporting. The 400 range on the heal is crippling, and requires Karma to expose herself as a support (while consuming mantra). The nuke on the shield is so close-range, that most support/carry compositions won't be in range of the nuke you use to shield your carry - thus mantra charges are pretty much reserved for healing while laning. In AP mid, Karma's in the same situation, unless she wants to farm with her shield. Doing that creates a golden opportunity for your opponent to strike you down, as one of your two preservation powers was used to farm.

I hope that as you read this post, you realized that I do love Karma as a champion. I enjoy her playstyle, but I see her weaknesses. These weaknesses, if known by the enemy, can't be compensated for. A jungler has to babysit AP Karma in lane to help her keep up (or if he's really good, get her ahead), which allows the enemy jungler to have free reign on wrecking top or bottom lane. As a support, Karma's short range forces her to be a heal/shield/slow support champion, which almost describes Lulu but with shorter range.

I left items out since bringing up items only made people angry that supports aren't buying wards (*sigh*).

Now, for your question. Taking all of the above into account, please elaborate how Karma isn't disadvantaged in season 3. Knowing her self-created damage deficiencies, and her crippling short range, please clarify how Karma is "amazing" beyond the enemy's lack of awareness in how Karma is played. Why doesn't Karma need to be changed?

tl:dr - There isn't one. This is a legitimate argument put forth to question why people don't want Karma's remake. I do not understand their position, and I am providing my logic in the hopes that civil discourse will reveal why Karma fans like her the way she is.

- Featherfox

References

- Source of Karma Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi...nlightened_one
- Source of Karma's AoE radius: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wik...bility_Details
- Source of Sona Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi...of_the_strings
- Source of Sona's AA range and damage for Power chords: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sona
- Source of Lux Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi..._of_luminosity
- Source of Lulu Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi..._fae_sorceress
- Source of Janna Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi...e_storm_s_fury


Hello, i would like to take a crack at this if i will, I feel someone already did do a fairly decent job already at describing How, I feel karma should be played currently, But even though ill give it a shot.

First thing i would like to say is please forgive anything that is misplaced or spelled incorrectly, as i am extremely tired. I'm just going to give a broad description of my thoughts and play style, How she is now, What she lacks, What could be improved on, and so forth.

Second thing i would like to add, is that i am NOT in favor of the New rework, i feel it is beyond ****, in So many ways that it hurts to even think about it- I pray that it Does not go live, and if anything. They simply make a New champion with those skills. Why? because i feel that Riot has not given Karma a chance to properly balance or Try things out. For instance, When was the last time You saw karma patch notes? Can you recall What was changed? was it buffs? was it nerfs?

I am not sure if this is completely accurate, but i just did a quick look up on a list of all of karma's patch notes, and well... here they are.

v1.0.0.138 - 2012-04-17

  • Fixed a bug where Mantra's recharge time wouldn't update with new ranks or cooldown reduction until reaching full ammo charges (2)

v1.0.0.125 - 2011-09-14

  • Fixed a bug where using a summoner spell would sometimes consume Karma's mantra charge

v1.0.0.123 - 2011-08-09

  • The cooldown before Karma's next Mantra charge and her current stacks are now shown in the same buff

v1.0.0.115 - 2011-04-11

  • Fixed a bug where the visual for Heavenly Wave occasionally wouldn't align with the direction cast
  • Mantra Soul Shield now shows an area of effect indicator when your cursor hovers over an ally

v1.0.0.114 - 2011-03-28

  • Fixed a bug where the Mantra version of Heavenly Wave was not granting assists for healing allies
  • Spirit Bond's leash range has been increased by a small amount
  • Mantra now scales with level on a 30/25/20 second cooldown at levels 1/7/13 respectively instead of on 25 second cooldown at all levels

v1.0.0.112 - 2011-03-01

  • Heavenly Wave base heal increased to 35/55/75/95/115/135 from 30/45/60/75/90/105
  • Spirit Bond cooldown reduced to 15/14/13/12/11/10 from 20/18/16/14/12/10.
  • Soul Shield Increased the shield strength by 10 at all ranks.
  • Mantra cooldown reduced to 25 seconds from 30 seconds.

v1.0.0.111 - 2011-02-16

  • Spirit Bond now properly assigns assist markers to allies that receive the haste bonus
  • Fixed a bug where Spirit Bond would break friendly spell shields and not apply the haste bonus
  • Fixed a display bug where Spirit Bond's beam would appear at Karma's feet for enemy players



So i look at these notes, and its extremely angering to try to understand WHY there is a rework taking place. If she is so bad, why not buff her? it looks like to me, No one has lifted a finger in Any attempts to modify the current build that she has. OR its that, she is Completely balanced, and its more that people just Still don't understand how to play her. Either way- Neither of these outcomes Should NEVER result in a rework of Any champion.

Enough of my rant to riot.


Okay, now, ill just go through her Current skills, my thoughts on them, and my play style with her.

Her Passive, To me The concept is perfectly fine, and should be kept as is. It fits well with her as a character, Karma the whole yin/yang aspect. Maybe it needs its numbers changed slightly Okay sure, we could go into that but overall, its Good, and Strong- Suits her.

Her Q- The Q is a bit tricky to master in an overall performance. I agree that the range is short- Maybe an increase would have been better suited, Or maybe it would just make it too Overpowered, Cant say because No patch was ever released towards it.

However, It is good damage, and its fairly easy to harass with it, Kinda hard to miss your target when it Covers 1/3 of the lane width LOL, That is unless your target is just Out of range, Which does happen, but in my experience, Not so much that it really matters a few times a game, sure, but doesn't everyone miss something a few times per game?

I normally never rank Q first, i feel its best ranked second because the heal benefit doesn't help too much early on, as ally's don't have a lot of tanky/hp items yet. Even when its not ranked first, it still deals good dmg, and if your in a close fight, having your passive kick in at those lower hp levels can make the difference in the dmg you deal with Q

In full 5v5 fights it depends what my team comp looks like, if their a bunch of tanky people for instance, Maybe ill sit in the back more and just mantra/heal and Not really ever worry about getting the dmg in- it lets me be safe and provides a ton of support if I can heal multiple people with 1 wave, it can even be game changing. if the fight lasts long enough or, it trickles down to maybe a 3v3- or a 2v2 thats where karma really shines with her Q, you should be able to easily line up Both, allys and enemys in smaller engagements, making it an extremely viable skill.

K enough on her Q. i could go on... Lol


Her W- Ohh spirit bond, the joys of it. This skill is also pretty tricky to learn and master, but is one of the best i feel in the game currently. First, let me brag about it, at max rank its 20% ms, Mantra'd giving 40%, the dmg it gives is also Really strong since it can hit multiple people, and speed multiple allys, You can easily drop this on an ally, for both escaping, or initiation Or to help nullify slow effects in a team fight (maybe your adc is having trouble chasing for dmg).

Now realistically will you ever be able to deal 5 targets worth of dmg with one link? No not really, its Very rare, but it can happen.

The bad things about "W" are already known, it doesn't deal initial dmg to the enemy target you link- My question would be, Why not add that for her? The other problem, is it cancels if your target stealths Which is also questionable if its an enemy, Why cant it reveal? or atleast allow them to stay linked- "Think leblanc"

However, even with the bad, you can still prevent ganks with the slow, or the haste, you just have to judge how it needs to be cast.

There are soo few, ally target speed boosts in the game already The New kit rework would have you believe, that it still exists, Which Dont get me wrong- There is a speed boost, Yet you must understand, that its placed ON the shield which is just terrible- I cannot even count how many times, i speed first for the first 5 seconds, and then Shield- Just as my ally gets into range for the shield bomb aspect and/or whatever else. I feel the new kit, will still keep a general shield duration of ~ 5 seconds which in the same example, Shield will run out prior to actually needing/wanting it.

Her E- Soul shield, This is what i mainly max, and for good reason, its Generally the main dmg output as well as your main survivability. You can pretty much block any 1 spell with 1 cast of your shield, and depending Who your going against, Sometimes multiple AD hits. This skill alone can make some people cry in a corner because they don't have the damage to bypass it and Depending on how AP heavy you take karma, you can easily reach 600 point shields Not even counting your passive kicking in during a fight.

The shield itself is pretty much the same as other's shields, Janna/Orianna The only difference of it being that you can also mantra it for aoe dmg on an entire team, and that the base value of it is higher with that 6th point invested.

Not going to go on talking about her shield- Pretty sure everyone knows what it does/how strong it is.

Her R- Mantra, I have multiple thoughts on mantra, One being that Late game, With 40% CDR 12 second mantra recharge, and able to hold 2 is Enough to get you by doing w/e u want to do.

However Early game does suck, i feel riot could just simplify this by Lowering the mantra Cooldown in the early phases- and putting a Cap on the amount CDR can reduce it, until you reach a certain level. For instance, instead of it being 30seconds early game, why not lower it, to 20 at all levels and put a cap on CDR items effecting it IE: you have 40% cdr but it only gives you a benefit of -1 second, Because your still X level. it would make her early game more viable and a lot more action packed. Of course im just shooting ideas here.


My play style of karma-
I prefer to play karma mid or top as a tanky AP caster, although she is still Okay in bot lane. i feel she doesn't create as much of an impact for her ADC currently in the early game as other supports do. However, i feel once i get enough farm on karma, she can help out the team to no end, Its kinda without say, that she needs CDR, i normally get max CDR from either Athene's or Morellos with a Spirit visage, and then debate on if i want to go more AP heavy (deathcap), or more Tanky/AP- if i choose Tanky AP i normally buy Rylai's then Omens and/or Hourglass- but alot of this just depends on who your against Comp wise. My tanky play style allows me to not die easily in 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 small encounters and still allow me to be Extremely effective. In 5v5's its a bit harder to control, yet still possible, and even still- You don't die very quickly, allowing you time to get off well timed shields/heals for you and your team.


Okay, im done- i dont even know what i wrote, and im too tired to even check- if its of any help, i am glad, if not then hey i tried.

If by any sense you want to know more of what i mean, or just want to see karma played in fairly good hands. i have been recently streaming videos of her being played in both 3v3's Ranked and 5v5's Normal I wish to warn viewers that video's may include foul language, View at your own discretion.

http://www.twitch.tv/kekisha/videos?kind=highlights

P.S. I actually missed the chance to stream a different game, where it was near end game, I was 2v1 vs a support zil and Mid Lux, who did Zero dmg past my shields, and pretty much killed both of them, Sadly

Sources
http://lol-patch.com/karma.html
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Karma


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Letler

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siigari View Post
Quite frankly, why don't you let the players decide?

We've had Karma the way she is for a long time and you haven't "removed" her passive. You're doing it now because she's being reworked and you can say that with a semi-straight face because of the rework. Not even I think you really believe that, you just want to push your own motivation.
The players did decide, Karma was rarely used and when she was often lost matches.


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Oh yeah, this is probably important to mention - Her AA range is 525 at the moment. Not gonna give homegirl incentives to aggressively AA and keep her at the old numbers! Take Inspire and level 1 and enjoy just training people with her super awesome auto attack!

Also i've edited the main post to clarify, but Inner Flame is AoE. The slow and damage is applied around the unit you first strike with it, making it possibly to trigger Gathering Fire multiple times if you manage to snipe a group of enemy champions!
OH SHE A "HOMEGIRL" JUS CUZ SHE BLACK. I'MA GET JESSIE JACKSON UP iN DIS *****.