So, about that Karma leak...

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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadaun the 0th View Post
Did anyone catch this?
It got wall-of-text'd, and I would like to know people's opinions on it.
As a dedicated Karma player, I feel that it would make her passive more interesting, and an improvement in flavor over what they are currently doing to her.
Wouldn't you say that would make her less about karmic backlash and more about self-sacrifice or being fuelled by pain?


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MrTharne

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Healurownbum View Post
Have two abilies to deal dmg and not have a ult to finish the target off.
Her ult is mantra, the way i see it is that you have three real ultimates to choose from. So you have three damaging spells.

We have to wait numbers to complain about the strengh of a skill or even a kit without cooldown/cost/ratio/etc.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Melancholy Exile - could you actually respond to this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
The point I, and a few other people were making, was that we never actually read Inner Flame or Karma's character as having a basis in karmic retribution. You're saying that it's the most readable theme of those currently incorporated in her design and yet I had never actually made the connection because it directly contradicts who her lore claims she is supposed to be. It feels to me as though you're imposing a theme on Karma which she isn't supposed to embody, rather than naturally playing up what she represents.
Scarizard (the main designer behind this rework) has said himself Karma lost all 'Karmaticness' about her as soon as they dropped out her passive Inner Flame.

Like I said - maybe old Karma's main focus wasn't 'karma' but it's a fact it was minorly incorperated into her design nontheless: the passive, Inner Flame.

Like I said, the themes she had: Karma (inner flame), Spiritualism (the entire spirit bond thingy), Yin-Yang (her previous default and new floating Yin-Yang symbol on new default)

The most readable theme to convert into a playstyle is 'Karma' - you seem to not argue about that you rather say 'I don't think that should be the main focus because it's not what Karma was about as we know her' - which my response on is:

Riot is trying to deliver a champion that's thematically tied as much as it can and to be a champion that is as readable as it can be. If making 'Karma' the main focus is the way to do that, I feel they should as focusing on anything else makes her less thematic and thus less readable which is what entirely has happend with Skarma.

So yes - I agree: Our Redesign Karma doesn't reflect Karma the way she was presented previously.

Our Redesign reflects Karma more by focusing on 'karma' as a theme, as any other main focused theme in her design is going to be less readable (for example, the explanation I gave that even a yin-yang focus would be less readable, just a bit more readable and thus better than main focus of 'spiritualism' or 'momentum and tension'


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Strawberrycocoa

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Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sessamo View Post
It seems like just about everybody is going to miss old Inner Flame. I hope they do seriously consider shifting a weaker version of her Gathering Flame passive onto the ult and give her the missing hp -> AP passive.
It'd make old Karma players happy of both strokes, and it's a pretty on-theme passive even on new Karma.
Actually, I played a game with Karma last night to get my kicks with her current kit before the rework, and I never paid attention to it before, but I think I understand why they are gutting the current passive.

The intuitive decision is to attack the vulnerable target, but doing that to Karma just gives her a massive power boost against you, especially with the %healing on Empowered Q.

I think that aoe %HP heal will be what I miss most personally. Current Karma is just so much awesome when supporting bruisers/initiators.


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Centuros

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
I've got a few stories cooked up about her experiences, but that's all non-cannon and I won't subject you to my fan fictions.
Well, where else are we going to get lore?
Just post your "fan fictions" already. I would love to read them.


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ThatGoodD

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
Is the new kit envisioned to be support or ap?
It clearly says that a lot of people had success as an AP mid so they are going to encourage players to play her as a mid or as a support that builds ap. I personally play karma as a mid and let me say she is pretty uncounterable


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
snip
I actually had a decent response written up for that but, as the conversation moved on, I decided it wasn't really necessary any more and closed the thing. Shame.

You've given a very conclusive answer that explains your points and stands for itself so I'm not actually sure what sort of feedback you're looking for from me. My argument matters very little because it's about how I interpret her character and what her core themes were - points which have no real impact on the direction you two have chosen for her concept. As far as I can tell we weren't having any sort of disagreement of consequence.

Could you possibly explain what it is you'd like me to address?


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Dobyk

Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
Basically: Because we've got free time on our hands and "How could this game be better?" is an interesting topic.
Fair enough


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
The point I, and a few other people were making, was that we never actually read Inner Flame or Karma's character as having a basis in karmic retribution. You're saying that it's the most readable theme of those currently incorporated in her design and yet I had never actually made the connection because it directly contradicts who her lore claims she is supposed to be. It feels to me as though you're imposing a theme on Karma which she isn't supposed to embody, rather than naturally playing up what she represents.
Rather, I'm using something that already existed, and capitalizing on it because it provides a great deal of both readability and direction to a design.

Also, being able to explain the gist of a champion by repeating the name of the champion is a pretty good deal as far as creating content that is both memorable and easy to grasp (which helps when you have to know what 110 characters can do at all times if you don't want to be at a direct disadvantage, that causes frustration because getting hit by things out of left field isn't cool). "Hey, who's this Indian chick?" "Karma." "What does she do?" "Well, she punishes you for attacking people she has her glowy thing on." "Oh, you mean like karma?" "Ye."

Quote:
Knowing that Karma's skills all punish aggression doesn't tell a player anything about how they should respond to them or what they should expect in return.
"Don't attack the dude with the floaty yin-yang on them, especially when it's glowing" and "Hitting this chick named 'Karma' means you're going to get hit back," respectively.

Actually, I think you answered that with the first part of the sentence--"Knowing that Karma's skills all punish aggression." How should they respond to this? Don't get affected by her skills (conveniently marked by the glowing, floating taijitu--this is why I was so excited about the visual rework)

Quote:
Karma doesn't deliver retribution; her crest delivers retribution while she stands idly by to the side and watches.
...and Karma controls the crest that delivers retribution. The crest is a part of Karma, so that's like saying "well, you're not hitting somebody--your sword is!" It's an extension of her will, just as a sword is just an extension of a very lethal b*tch-slap. : P

This is also like saying that Orianna's kit is an "idle" kit, or somehow implying that she doesn't have any actual abilities just because they're centered around The Ball. It's like saying that Ori's kit is boring and uninvolved, and that people wouldn't want to play her--which isn't the case in the least. It still requires skillful application of abilities, and it still requires some element of risk to reach maximum reward (in Ori's case, autoattacking to proc Clockwork Windup, and in Karma's case, getting AP from being at low health).

Quote:
This creates the false choice that targeting Karma, and avoiding the backlash from the crest, is a solid idea, when you're actually just feeding her Inner Flame and increasing her strength by a different path. If she can stand at a reasonably safe distance while her charge bears her crest, how are you actually offering the enemy an opportunity to act on this apparent knowledge in the laning phase?
Karma's offense is directly and intimately tied to that of her enemy. If an enemy doesn't have the capacity to work around not attacking during Q's 1-second sweetspot (this is the prime "aggression punishment" aspect of her laning phase, as W is a point-blank AoE and Q's passive damage is only 1/3 as powerful as a basic ability, so shorter trades against a Q-maxing Karma is the winning move--this also creates a nice tug of war where the bearer of the crest tries to draw out enemy aggression by pressing the offensive, or goading them into a counterattack by, guess what, also pressing the offensive), they can try to avoid aggression at all costs and not worry about being pushed out of lane if they can hold their ground against one carry's aggression.

Quote:
Silver Bolts has clear counter-play to deny the enemy damage in backing away and preventing them getting the third stack. What is the clear counter-play to "Trying to trade with the enemy makes me take additional damage" other than simply not trading at all?
The damage from non-sweetspot Q procs is outweighed threefold by an enemy support's poke. It's not an instance of "Karma gets to screw you over for free if you attack her," but rather, "a well-played Karma will screw you over if you attack her," namely though sweet-spotting Qs.


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The5lacker

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
The point I, and a few other people were making, was that we never actually read Inner Flame or Karma's character as having a basis in karmic retribution. You're saying that it's the most readable theme of those currently incorporated in her design and yet I had never actually made the connection because it directly contradicts who her lore claims she is supposed to be. It feels to me as though you're imposing a theme on Karma which she isn't supposed to embody, rather than naturally playing up what she represents.
...Huh? How does "Punishing people for their misdeeds (attacking Karma)" not invoke the thought of karma? How does "Sacrificing one's self to protect an ally (intercepting skillshots) and gaining strength from it" not invoke karma? It's a Karmic balance on BOTH SIDES! Enemies are punished for trying to destroy Karma, and Karma gains strength through her sacrifice!