So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Kaneofchaos

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Hmmmm


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Knotee

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by mofoey View Post
personally i loved her passive because her name is karma and people who decided to dive her for a kill suffered
Karma is cause and effect in one view and the effect Karma, the champion, enacts from the "cause" of diving her is not sufficient given her abilities. She can't dish out "karma" in the same way they dish out to her. Her passive was not appropriate at all.


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobyk View Post
Wait, why are people discussing alternative Karma redesigns? Riot clearly stated in what direction they are heading Karma, and everything will become clear once and for all on the Tuesday Reddit AMA, (hopefully she will be released on PBE on the same day). There is no point in re-imagining her anymore, because they have already created the new concept and will stick to it. Let us just wait and see how she goes. If we are lucky they might actually buff her in PBE or slightly change mechanics.
Basically: Because we've got free time on our hands and "How could this game be better?" is an interesting topic.


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Whyumai

Senior Member

03-17-2013

I just find it sad that LoL is losing a support.

Essentially from what I can see Karma is being pushed into a AP mid role.

Basically she'll be another Orianna or Lux.

Except we already have Orianna, Lux, Morgana (, etc) who can all do this sort of thing. Not to mention that Karma can already effectively mid.

I just don't see why you would change Karma if you're just pushing her to a role that she can already do.

What's the point of the change?


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobyk View Post
Wait, why are people discussing alternative Karma redesigns? Riot clearly stated in what direction they are heading Karma, and everything will become clear once and for all on the Tuesday Reddit AMA, (hopefully she will be released on PBE on the same day). There is no point in re-imagining her anymore, because they have already created the new concept and will stick to it. Let us just wait and see how she goes. If we are lucky they might actually buff her in PBE or slightly change mechanics.
Cause ppl like myself dont like the way they changed her. Its a new champion and if it were to have been a new champion i would of enjoyed it. But its not suppose to be a new champion its suppose to be a champion thats upgraded not changed compleetly.

And in that is the problem for me. I hasnt rly gotten anything left from old Karma for me.


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Amadaun the 0th

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Karma's passive could be interesting if instead of her spells and autoattacks on enemy champs cools Mantra down, enemy champions and autoattacks that hit her cool it down.

It would give the feel of Karmic Backlash that the old passive had, while still fitting into the redesigned champion that you now have.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Fancy seeing you around GD, Riven!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
Well ... you can't do anything to avoid the passive damage from attacking the crest bearer. Any skills or auto-attacks used against them will result in you taking damage, even if Karma doesn't activate the skill, and she has a heal to mitigate whatever damage you may inflict in a trade. In the case of two ranged carrys occasionally trading attacks in the laning phase, it certainly provides a certain incentive to limit how much you attack your enemy. You can compare her active to the shields or heals of other characters but neither of those skills provides a constant penalty for attempting to trade.
Keep in mind, that unlike other supports that have shields and whatnot, Karma has no avenues of direct aggression. This isn't unavoidable damage by any means--it's just another factor to take into account during trades. Since the passive effect is 30% as powerful as a basic ability, a "winning trade" against a Q-maxing Karma would be one that's as short as possible. Even taking your own support into account, they would be doing more damage to Karma's carry, thank Karma would be doing to yours.

Onto the heal, again, it's on a charge-based system. If Karma is maxing this first or second, you're going to want to keep trades short--the only instance in which you'd want to draw out trades would be if she were maxing W, as it has no persistent damage attached to it. It's the same principle as laning against Darius, or laning against Garen. Laning against Darius means that you're going to want to keep trades as short as possible, while laning against Garen means you're going to want to draw things out, as his kit is more suited for smaller skirmishes in the context of the lane.

Quote:
As for the active: I agree entirely, I simply think that it could prove horribly demoralising for players who rely on predictable skills such as Taric's Dazzle.
Then perhaps you're aware of how little I think of such predictable abilities? If you are familiar with the Taric redesign, you will see that I have removed it. Taric's stun is required to be as slow as it is, because it is a targeted, ranged stun, meaning it's unavoidable once it's in the air. To prevent it from being broken as all hell, it needs a longer travel time, so one would at least have enough time to flash away before Taric and his buddy can close the gap and caress you gently. Outrageous...

Quote:
I disagree that this iteration of Karma would prove less passive than Soraka, at least in the supporting role. Karma has no particular incentive to be close to her enemy, other than to harass with auto-attacks, as none of her skills are targeted on enemies, two of them involve buffing a friendly target and the third certainly sounds as though it only affects a modest AoE around a friendly target - I may be interpreting that incorrectly though. Soraka can harass regularly with Infuse; how does your Karma harry the enemy?
Soraka's infuse is fairly inconsequential (due to its costless nature, the silence attached to it, the fact that it is a targeted ability, etc.), and maxing it before her heal means that the advantages of having Soraka in lane (ie. infinite sustain) are no longer at play. The fact that she is able to push aggression does not make her any less passive, because this aggression is far outweighed by the sustain she brings--after all, it's more effective to have your ally harass with their more powerful abilities, while you just fill 'em up whenever Infuse is off cooldown.

You are also confusing "not aggressive" with "passive." Karma's playstyle is active, because it's REactive. Just because you don't do things all willy-nilly, doesn't mean you aren't encouraged to interact with your opponent (unlike Soraka, who only has to look right above their ally's head to know which ability to use and when), which is what Riot wants to encourage because that's what competition is all about. In fact, a great deal of Karma's gameplay is in direct reaction to what her opponent is doing--this is just about the same as sitting in a crowd of enemies in either of Batman: Arkham Whatever games and countering attack after attack. Have you ever counterattacked as Batman? It feels great (not just according to me, mind you, but the just about everybody that has something good to say about those games--I could explain it with Brain Science, but I think you're already aware of how much the brain likes having stimuli to react to, and how it likes being rewarded for doing so even more).

Quote:
Why would Karma want to be in the "danger zone" during the laning phase if she is supporting a ranged character?
I don't know, maybe it's the free AP that directly increases the effectiveness of all her abilities? Intentionally getting low isn't a thing that you have to do, also (if your opponent isn't being aggressive, there's no reason to get low--whereas with current Karma, you're rewarded for getting low because you can poke harder), as it's mostly a tool that allows Karma to deal with the aggression she wants to generate so she can do cool stuff with her other abilities. Since it's part of a unified whole, it doesn't share the same problems as old Karma. Inner Flame on old Karma is like having Olaf's Innate on, say, Shaco--does he benefit from the attackspeed? Yes--just as old Karma benefits from AP. However, neither has the tools to thrive at low HP (like Olaf and Trynd and Mundo do), or any reason to do so beyond "hey, free stats." Olaf and Trynd are encouraged to go balls-to-the-wall with the rest of their kit, the stats-based-on-% missing-HP effect is just there to act as an enabler.

Quote:
Lastly, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to convey with my final question:

There are currently no abilities in the game which reflect spell effects; there are shields which block spells but nothing that applies their effects onto the caster. How are players supposed to know that they'll be hit by their own abilities, before they've been unfortunate enough to already suffer that plight, and how would you clearly convey that was happening?
"Karma." This is the magic of clearly defined and accentuated theming that plays a part in every aspect of a champion's gameplay.

Granted, if Karma's name wasn't "Karma" (which isn't a term you throw around lightly--kind of like how Brand is named Brand and Olaf is named Olaf, they give you an idea of what the character may be like before you even see them, and naming is as much a part of champion design as visuals are), this would be much more difficult to pull off and I probably wouldn't do it. I'd most likely end up dropping her altogether because spirituality and yin-yang duality aren't enough to create something both defined (there are other champions that are capable of both harming their enemies and helping their allies) and readable (due to a lack of defined and prominent purpose for all the aspects of the kit to work towards).


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobyk View Post
Wait, why are people discussing alternative Karma redesigns? Riot clearly stated in what direction they are heading Karma, and everything will become clear once and for all on the Tuesday Reddit AMA, (hopefully she will be released on PBE on the same day). There is no point in re-imagining her anymore, because they have already created the new concept and will stick to it. Let us just wait and see how she goes. If we are lucky they might actually buff her in PBE or slightly change mechanics.
Due to the fact that they've incorperated the following themes into her visual appearance: Yin-Yang, Karma, Spiritualism and then suddenly drop these themes all together when it comes to gameplay, turning her into a champion with a 'tension and momentum' playstyle, which has pretty much nothing to do with Karma.

If the main focused new direction of Karma would've been a champion that revolves around 'tension and momentum' she wouldn't have looked like a glowing 'filled with energy' Spiritualist with a huge floating Yin-Yang on her design.

Don't you think it is possible they might have decided to not convert 'spiritualist', 'karma' and 'yin-yang' into her gameplay because they thought it would be too hard or impossible?

I like to think that is a plausible way of thinking, hence discussing a Redesign I feel that does convert these themes into a playstyles and thus thematically unifying Karma more.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
Basically: Because we've got free time on our hands and "How could this game be better?" is an interesting topic.
^


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Amadaun the 0th

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadaun the 0th View Post
Karma's passive could be interesting if instead of her spells and autoattacks on enemy champs cools Mantra down, enemy champions and autoattacks that hit her cool it down.

It would give the feel of Karmic Backlash that the old passive had, while still fitting into the redesigned champion that you now have.
Did anyone catch this?
It got wall-of-text'd, and I would like to know people's opinions on it.
As a dedicated Karma player, I feel that it would make her passive more interesting, and an improvement in flavor over what they are currently doing to her.


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Way it currently see it is Skarma is going to be a mid champion. Have two abilies to deal dmg and not have a ult to finish the target off. This is assuming you would W the target then E urself and R/Q for make dmg having the explode part happen during the root. What will u do after that tho? Just AA the target hoping its dead? Of is it going to deal so much burst u can nuke them from lets say 60% which in my eyes for two abilies is kinda sick for laning phase.

I dont know im just spittballing here if thats even the term. I know i will not be playing her as a support anymore. Hell knowing myself being forced to use R/E in teamfights cause its so freaking strong make me not use it cause its forced to be a pick choice. Its why i play Karma she is rare and can do what is needed on her own terms, nobody would tell me how to play her.