So, about that Karma leak...

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ZeroSoulreaver

Senior Member

03-17-2013

I have to admit, the old Karma was more interesting. She had that ancient feel about her like a Taoist type theme with the fans/magic, design of clothing and her overall persona.

Now her theme is more subtle, she just looks like some Marvel superhero who shoots lazers out her tush. I am not upset about the new design, it would have been a sweet alt costume but not default. The issue is they had something interesting and kinda took it away.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-17-2013

(I apologize for the length--feel free to scroll over this if you are not SirLapse)

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Originally Posted by SirLapse View Post
@ ItemsGuy
I am truly sorry that I just don't want to play with your style that benefits from such a passive way of fighting. Swain is supposed to be a leader as well, and yet his kit is directed to controlling the movements of opponents while managing to keep his almost malicious aura as a character. But that's another thing. Here's where the fun starts...
Alright dude, now you're just yanking my chain. : P

Let's use the dictionary for a second! If we look at "passive" here, we'll see that the general meaning of it revolves around the idea of not taking action. If I'm sitting down and you start poking me in the shoulder and I just sit there and take it, I'm being passive. Passive gameplay is the kind of stuff Riot tries to avoid, because it isn't very engaging--if players aren't encouraged to do anything, where's the fun in that? If redesign!Karma had a passive playstyle, her kit would be based around granting auras and generally just "being there" with no incentive to interact with the other players.

Now, let's look at "reactive." This, now, is about being responsive to stimulous--taking action when acted upon, which instantly pulls it out of "passive" territory because "active" is there (although it is situational activity, you can usually rely on your opponents to try to do things in-game instead of just sitting there passively, like the old bots). Since Karma's kit is all about counter-acting to enemy actions--punching somebody back when they poke you in the shoulder--it's still engaging, which means it's something the brain likes. Players are still rewarded for doing the right thing at the right time--"doing" being the operative word here--so it's not passive in the least. It's just a bit less mindless in its execution (compared to, say, throwing down all your spells as Brand just because they're off cooldown and there's an enemy in your field of vision), and requires more finesse and forethought. Engaging the brain!

It may not be the kind of play you are looking for in a champion--and I don't demand it to be! Riot has expressed something along the lines of "wanting a different flavor of ice cream for everybody, instead of getting one flavor and trying to make it globally appealing (which isn't a thing that happens--everyone has different tastes)" so there are going to be champions you love, and champions you just don't really care for. I, for instance, don't really find Fiddlesticks to be enjoyable--he's too slow, too squishy, and relies too heavily on people making mistakes (like staying in range of his drain). Does that mean that I'm not "doing" anything as him--not even! It just means that I don't like what I'm doing.

If we can come to an agreement here--you don't like what you would be doing as redesign!Karma (because, I'll assume, you're more keen on direct aggression in the vein of champs like Ahri and Ezreal), which is totally an okay thing to happen. However, Karma's gameplay isn't "passive," because it revolves around her doing things actively, and rewards her for doing the right things at the right time (and again, the brain eats this stuff up). Please, man, don't use the "p" word again!

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I've separated the sections into paragraphs, and they should be considered entirely.
Still gonna break 'em into chunks to avoid overwhelming third parties. : P

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The passive being left alone helps trolling. I do not think that every single Karma player is going to avoid playing as such, and benefiting that just seems wrong.
Trolling, in what way? Trolling, like blocking off your own allies with Anivia's wall? Trolling, like stealing farm from across the map with Gangplank's ult? Or perhaps trolling, like running face-first into the enemy team at every opportunity because you want to see your team squirm?

Trolling is going to happen regardless, because people are horrible when behind the veil of the Internet--but even then, having a mechanic that intensifies at lower health isn't "trolly" (it's not something that can be directly abused to benefit the enemy team, unless you make really, really bad decisions like getting low on health and then walking right up to them), but rather, something that can be extremely unintuitive in the wrong context. For example, what if we gave Karma's old Innate to Veigar? Not only is there no reason for him to get to low health, but encouraging him to do so with stats that directly benefit him, is a False Choice anti-pattern, because he's not going to get much out of that bonus AP since he has no way to keep himself alive.

In the case of Olaf, Tryndamere, and redesign!Karma, all of these champions have kits that are specially designed to allow them to thrive at low health--Olaf's bonus attackspeed increases the amount he's healing with his built-in lifesteal, allowing him to be harder to take down at lower health (and more dangerous); Tryndamere's ultimate allows him to stay at the very threshold of death to get the most out of that bonus AD, meaning he's both more dangerous AND unkillable for the duration; redesign!Karma's (R)Q, (R)W, and (R)E can save her from potentially fatal situations (whether by blocking an entire instance of damage, slowing and silencing assailants, or healing herself over time with the added bonus of % damage mitigation), and pack a tremendous kick when Karma herself is at the brink of death.

Karma's old kit didn't allow her to thrive at low health--rather, it gave her a long-cooldown and watered-down heal (due to its AoE nature--it can't heal as much as a single-target version of the ability), and a temporary shield; she could only "thrive" in very, very short bursts, which is why Inner Flame does not go well with it, and why Riot may have come to the conclusion that "this kind of ability doesn't work on casters" (which is a problem with problem-solving, and a conclusion that was jumped to with too little evidence).

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Yes, there are smart ways to use something, but when you have something like this, it's just very easy to abuse.
Because Olaf was underpowered in ranked, right? : P

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In Ranked, playing like that gets you locked and killed from map awareness. You have your wards, they have theirs.
If you have poor map awareness, and you stick around at low health, then yeah, you're probably going to pay for it. "Some people aren't as good as other people at this game" doesn't really say anything about the harmfulness of a mechanic, as much as it says about an individual player's poor judgment.

Opening yourself to danger is part of the "risk" to the "reward," and why said reward is allowed to be powerful. If Karma just had a flat bonus AP at all times, it wouldn't be nearly as high as the bonus from Inner Flame now, and is power without gameplay (and in the context of a game, you typically want to encourage gameplay--such as taking risks!).

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Not to mention that passive players are a common thing there. The "planning" that you're talking about can be easily done in Ranked play, as coordinated teams can effectively shut you down without a problem.
Yeah--if they're more coordinated than you are. That's kind of how "outplaying" works. Also, if I could ask, please stop using incredibly uneven situations as the sole basis of your arguments, man! That's like saying that there's something wrong with your baseball bat just because you're playing against a pro pitcher that can strike you out every time.

From now on, let's assume that the Karma in question is just as skilled as her opponent, and that her team is just as coordinated as theirs.

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Normal games are practically the only safe haven for your Karma, where people are not necessarily that experienced. EDIT: I forgot to add, 45 AP bonus for being at 10% is NOT balanced. OP elements ALWAYS feel nice to whoever uses them, just go look at Darius.
Again, you don't have to be inexperienced to have your aggression turned against you by Karma--she just has to be better than you. Kind of like how [insert champion] can wipe the floor with you in lane if the player in control of them is more experienced than you. If you can't land your stun or AoE as Veigar and go 0/8 to Ahri in-lane, that doesn't mean those abilities are bad or that Veigar is only good against bad players, it just means that you're not as good with him, as your opponent is with their champion.

Also, you aren't looking at both sides of the equation here--45 AP at 10% health, means you're at 10% health. Being at 10% health means you're very, very close to death. Being very, very close to death means that your opponent will have an easier time killing you, compared to if you were at 100% health. If you can handle surviving long enough at 10% health to make use of that 45 bonus AP, you should be rewarded for it--if you know your opponents are more skilled, you're probably not going to want to take that risk, because the reward isn't worth it in this case.

It's not overpowered, because that AP comes at a tremendous cost. In fact, you could say it's less overpowered than, say, Veigar's Q, because that can give him more AP than Karma gets from low health, without doing anything more than last-hitting, which he would be doing anyways. The trade-off with Karma, however, is that the AP is available without having to last-hit for 10 minutes (or take any gold at all), and the trade off for that, in turn, is that the maximum bonus is static--it can only go past a certain point.

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The necessity for hard CC on a champ like her is needed heavily.
Not at all--she already has a lot else on her plate. Her presence alone is enough to discourage unwarranted aggression, and she has situational hard CC due to her (R)Q reflecting not only damage, but negative effects as well.

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Riot tried adding that in with a Root for W, but it's not instant enough to be convincing. I have to remind you that just picking a support that can shield or tank damage or someone that can mitigate heals can already counter the Karma you present. Off-tanks, Locket of the Solari, Soraka, etc. just shut down this Karma so badly.
Off-tanks (by which I assume you mean bruisers): (R)W, then (R)Q as soon as the silence wears off in case they try any funny business. Unless your carry is horribly out of position, he should be fine. (R)W -> (R)E is also an alternative.

Locket of the Solari: Not quite sure how a shield is supposed to "shut down" Karma. If it's off cooldown? Cool, now you only have to eat the slow and silence from (R)W, and maybe some of your own CC from (R)Q. If it's on cooldown? Business as usual. If it's a single-target shield like Lulu's? Walk backwards, wait a few seconds for the shield to stop being a thing, and then walk back in.

Soraka: So she's...healing her ally, and this "shuts down" Soraka? Even if it's a passive lane, all that means is that neither side has to worry about getting shoved out of lane, so no party is getting "shut down" in this case.

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That leads to the next point....which is: "What if the damage is serious enough to combat the meta?"
The simple fact of the matter is, if that shield is massively damaging to that extent from being a passive, it's not balanced (it'd have to be nerfed when against minions/monsters or it's similar to the true damage passive in the defensive mastery tree).
If you had read my previous post, you would've seen something along the lines of "the passive effect is about 30% as powerful as a basic ability (so around 20 + (25% AP) at rank 1), so the activation is about as powerful as a full basic ability." The focus of the ability is more the active than the passive--as it not only allows you to switch your focus from ally to ally, it can deal a fair amount of retribution damage as well.

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If you need your original passive to do so, all the more encouragement to play like a maniac instead of controlled gameplay.
Playing like a maniac is Olaf's game, where you are given the tools to go all-in and stick to enemies no matter what. Karma is more about calculated risks and proportional retribution, because her kit is more about punishing aggression than generating it. Her current kit allows her to throw out nukes willy-nilly, which is why getting that extra AP is such a temptation. In the context of the redesign kit, however, there's no reason to get to low health unless it's in the context of using enemy aggression to empower your own abilities (which is--surprise!--what her entire kit is about), because you can no longer barrage your opponent with mindless nukes.

A good Karma player would be rewarded for calculated risks, and punished for "playing like a maniac"--which should be the case, if you're not playing as a maniac-type character (like Singed, Tryn, and Olaf) that's all about going balls-to-the-wall and making risky plays.

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This would also cause your partner to become passive, because if they initiate, the minions will have aggro and ultimately strike down the first second of Q instead of the enemy champ.
Correction: this would cause your partner to be more mindful of minion aggro, opting to harass from out of minion aggro range, which is what you're supposed to do anyway. If that's too much of a challenge, then last-hitting and then going in for aggression is the thing to do. Minions inhibit Karma no more than they inhibit Ezreal--and a good Ezreal is anything but passive.

Also, keep in mind that Q is at Karma's discretion to use. On her end, waiting for an enemy projectile to already be in the air would be the time for her to activate Q, dealing that full retribution damage without having to worry about pesky minion interception.

If it's somehow a problem monumental enough to make Q obsolete in-lane, then it can simply be changed to not affect minions--or in Pantheon's case, the active could simply only activate for ticks of damage over 40. This is a problem that has been solved in the past.

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Forcing it to only activate when you receive a champion hit is even worse, this means that the damage has to be lowered so as to not have an easy kill for your ADC.
Not at all--it rewards Karma for good timing, and that's hardly a bad thing. Taking that damage is also in the enemy's control as well--this is the same principle of skill shot abilities (ie. both parties have influence on whether it hits or not).

This is like saying "supports shouldn't have abilities that can set up their allies for kills when used skillfully, because it's setting up their allies for kills!" Kinda what supports are for, yo. : P

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The heal HAS to be Taric level if you involve the other "reactive" skills into that, she cannot just be forced into an OP tier of supporting (we have Alistar for that, and even he has restrictions and minor damage potential).
A few issues with this chunk:

-It's allowed to be more powerful than Soraka's heal if it's activated with full stacks, due to that full power not being immediately available all the time (and in fact, in the control of your opponents), not granting a ludicrous amount of bonus armor, and not being an immediate effect--rather one that occurs over 6 seconds. Taric's heal isn't allowed to be powerful numerically because its cooldown is decreased on-hit, meaning that if it were Soraka-tier powerful, Taric could stack attackspeed and keep his team up forever (while also dealing more damage than Taric should as a champion that can heal his own team to that extent) on top of granting auras out the wazoo.

-Alistar is about as far away from OP as you can get--and even then, his heal is at full power all the time and is multi-target. Karma's heal can be powerful because it A) requires set-up, B) doesn't have any additional effects outside of Mantra, C) is not instantaneous, and D) is single-target. It's all about those sliding scales!

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Your W being incorporated into the passive combined with Q utterly prevents an attack entirely.
Incorrect--it punishes poorly thought-out melee skirmishes. W is a point-blank AoE (like it is now), and Q's active only lasts for 1 second.

Also, it only discourages attacking the champion marked with the huge, floating, glowy, green taijitu, meaning that the aggression discouragement is very selective, and why it's allowed to be powerful. Sliding scale of single-target vs. AoE--ie., why single-target abilities are allowed to be more powerful than AoE abilities. Splitting 100% across 2 creates two instances of 50%, but splitting 100% across 1 is still 100%.

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Effective? I would say that it's too perfect, considering there's no aim involved with that massive damage possibility.
Except that it requires Karma to jump on a 1 second window of opportunity???? It's a battle of "can I bait this 1 second nuke retribution out" vs. "how well can I time this Q," meaning that both parties have a say in the matter. That's what counterplay is about, after all.

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It would be effective to say that an ADC who doesn't possess high magic resist can be bursted down just from that.
No more "bursted down" than a carry would be when faced with any other magic damage harass. Karma isn't the only champion with abilities!

Granted, the limitations based on Karma's damage allow it to be numerically more powerful (kind of how squeezing a water bottle harder will cause the water to come out more violently) than a normal ability, but the other side of that coin is that there are more things the opposing party can do to avoid that damage. Like not attacking during Q's 1-second sweet spot, or not getting within point-blank AoE range of the dude with the glowy yin-yang floating over them. Karma's Q is allowed to be more powerful than, say, Nunu's snowball, because it's not a guaranteed hit (and also doesn't slow).

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Not something I'd expect from skills that are meant to support.
This is more a fault of a long history of poorly-designed supports, than it is about a support that is actually allowed to feel powerful when played well. For future reference, use Thresh as your benchmark for "how powerful a support is allowed to be."

The thing about supports, is that, by design, they're not gold-dependent. They have higher base values and get a lot of stuff from their kit, but consequentially, they don't scale as well with offensive items. Redesign!Karma has some mage qualities as well, though, so she'd fall into a similar category to say, Zyra--she's perfectly capable of being a mid-lane mage and a bot-lane support, but she's not as "safe" as other supports; if she's behind, she's a bit less useful than other supports, because she doesn't have as much "free stuff" as they do. On the other side of that, she also scales better with them and gets more out of items than they do.

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And if the damage is scaled down, what then? It just means that it'll only serve the purpose of merely poking your enemy, like all current supports. A little extra damage here and there from the passive, something that Life-steal can and SHOULD handle for balance purposes.
Well, yeah--what did you think this was, a 12-second cooldown nuke? This is an ability that is meant to be used over and over and over again, so it's more about maximizing those "clutch" opportunities than doing the ol' one-and-done. It's a magic equivalent of Fiora's Riposte--you're going to be using it more than once in longer fights.

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Factors such as how long Q lasts along with how many times you can activate W in between have to be considered, and if W is on an average AP scale, it'll most likely only activate once (which seems to be your intention).
Due to the fact that it isn't instantly at full power, its cooldown won't be tremendous. Again, sliding scales, give-and-take. It trades instantaneous power for higher maximum power and increased access.

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With that in mind, the sheer amount of damage potential from returning attacks and an active damage tool has to be within the lines of other supports, or that will just be an indirect mage.
Since these abilities are reliant on reactive play, this is not the case. This is also why skill shots are allowed to be more powerful than targeted abilities, whether that be through range, damage, cooldown, or effects. So no, it's allowed to be more powerful than other supports, because more conditions must be satisfied before the damage is accessible. This is the difference between constantly poking someone with Lulu's nuke and activating a well-timed Seal of Twin Dragons. Sliding scale of freedom vs. power (and again, the water bottle effect).

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You need Mantra for your CC, something very disadvantageous in this meta.
...which is counter-balanced by the fact that charges of mantra can be stored (up to 2), which allows this CC to be available if you need it, as long as you haven't wasted it. This CC is also allowed to be more powerful than regular CC (multi-target slow and silence), because it's on a quazi-ultimate cooldown.

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If you're going to give me the excuse that damage covers it, then you can go talk to Soraka and Sion supports.
Because Soraka deals damage and Sion is a viable support (who needs gold badly, has no mana pool, and offers only a fraction of the utility Taric does while not really trumping him in any other area in the context of 0cs botlane support), right?

(Also, damage *does* cover it--hence why Lulu and support Nidalee are things; the latter, I believe, won some huge tournament about a month ago paired up with Caitlyn)

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The pressure from Alistar comes from creating unexpected CC hits, there's almost no time to react to them. This would also stop your Karma, because they can hit you with a bit of CC causing you to proc it to yourself, then allowing them to assault your partner.
Punishing Karma for being out of position? Don't see how this is a problem--counterplay is not a flaw in design, but rather the contrary. Counterplay is what allows redesign!Karma to be a nightmare when played well. (Also, allow me to point out that you are arguing both that Karma would be too powerful, and too weak--please make up your mind, man!)

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Or, they could focus you after you think they're aiming for the ADC.
Again, a good play on their part, and the Karma player's fault for falling for it. "They could just dodge your skillshot! Skillshots UP plz buff!"

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They literally just have to be minorly passive, that's how predictable your kit is. And I do mean minorly, as in 0.5-1.5 seconds.
A bad Karma player will be predictable--again, not a problem with a kit, but a problem with you deciding that locking in Karma at champ select lowers a player's reaction time and the ability to gauge situations by 250%.

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Then there's Mundo, benefiting from your passives using Masochism.
A) You could say the same for Tryndamere and Olaf, who you will also not be seeing in bot lane. If you're talking about top lane, then Karma's best bet would just be to max E and sit there as she shrugs off everything they do because they're at full health, and attacking her gives her Harmony charges.

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Fiddlesticks should be able to even ignore you entirely if the enemies have already caused you to use up W or W2.
Then that's Karma's fault for blowing W/(R)W prematurely. Fiddlesticks generally benefits from any champion not having their interrupts off cooldown, this is nothing new.

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Nocturne forces you to pick who to protect without knowing who he will strike. Good Noc players can even abuse this to make you activate the shield on yourself, simple as that.
That's kind of the point of Nocturne--to instill paranoia within players. He's very mind-game-y, especially in the context of his ult. If the Nocturne player is more skilled than the Karma player, he will bait Karma's seal and go for somebody else. If the Karma player is more skilled than the Nocturne player, she'll wait for him to commit to a champion and burn his fear so he doesn't get his ass kicked, and then (R)Q right before the fear goes off, causing it to backfire.

From now on, you have to promise me that you'll stop using "but a Karma player could be much less skilled than her opponent!" as your example. It's like saying "Ez is useless because enemies could just dodge those skillshots all day!" It's bunk, and a little bit frustrating because I have to repeat myself!

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I can go on and on over what junglers can toss that kit around, but hopefully you see my point that it has no real offensive potential or hard CC to be viable. You have to handle the lane possibilities before the roam/skirmish possibilities.
A) "ENEMIES MORE SKILLED THAN KARMA" again

B) Offensive potential is there, you spent a good paragraph talking about how OP it is and how it completely prevents enemy aggression

C) Hard CC is not a prerequisite to viability. What Karma lacks in hard CC, she makes up for with, well, everything else. Also, putting hard CC into a kit forces the other aspects of that kit to be watered down, which isn't a good thing if the point of the kit isn't to lock enemies up.

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I swear, if you're not getting how being completely defensive (I don't care how you want to spin it, reacting to enemy attacks or planning against them is being defensive,
Incorrect. Shielding an ally is defensive. Reflecting damage is offensive. I'm using dictionary definitions here--there's no spinning being done on my part. Karma's kit is no more defensive than ducking under a punch and then uppercutting is, in the context of boxing. There's a very clear difference between that and blocking incoming attacks by hiding behind your arms.

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the mastery trees are there to show what champs can be based on, and this kit is definitely not utility)
The mastery trees are there to grant different benefits. Champion kits show what champs are based on. Want to play a Karma with more AP? Go into the Offense tree. Want to play a Karma that's more durable and can survive longer? Go into the Defensive tree. Want to play a Karma that is a bit less item dependent and is granted bonuses that help her support (free ward, free G/10, free CDR, etc.)? Go into the Utility tree.

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is bad or inconvenient to use in this game from this wall of text, I just think you're being biased on how "effective" your redesign is instead of actually considering all the counter-play elements to it.
Not at all--I'm viewing this objectively; whereas, I'm lead to believe that your mindset is more along the lines of "what are the circumstances in which this would not work," like how most examples you use involve the Karma player being outplayed severely by her opponents. Hell, just going by this, you've contradicted yourself, because in the same post you point out the ways in which Karma can be counter-played, you imply that there is a problem with the counterplay.

Unless I'm misreading that last bit, and you are saying that counterplay is a bad thing, allow me to redirect you to dozens of Morello and Zilean posts that say the contrary.

I appreciate the time investment, but I'm going to need you to try a bit harder if we're going to continue with this. Your posts are laden with contradictions ("Karma would be so OP!" "Karma would be worthless!") and quazi-strawmen ("This Karma wouldn't work if the Karma player was much less skilled than her opponent!"), and this gets in the way of a solid understanding of the matters at hand.


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-17-2013

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
This character is all about 'Karma' or 'What goes around, comes around' - most readable theme out of all the themes that are currently incorperated in her design.

Why? Because right from an instant you know what all of her abillities work towards to: punishing aggresion and redirecting it, it doesn't matter exactly what the effects to working towards that goal - the most important part is that you know what the character is all about right from an instant.

Does it really matter for a new player that 3 rings of Vayne's silver bolts will proc true damage on him? Not neseccarily, the main point is that the player obviously notices that collecting three rings isn't good - similar like that the main point is that the player notices that everything that Karma is all about will be about punishing aggresion and redirecting it.
The point I, and a few other people were making, was that we never actually read Inner Flame or Karma's character as having a basis in karmic retribution. You're saying that it's the most readable theme of those currently incorporated in her design and yet I had never actually made the connection because it directly contradicts who her lore claims she is supposed to be. It feels to me as though you're imposing a theme on Karma which she isn't supposed to embody, rather than naturally playing up what she represents.

Knowing that Karma's skills all punish aggression doesn't tell a player anything about how they should respond to them or what they should expect in return. Karma doesn't deliver retribution; her crest delivers retribution while she stands idly by to the side and watches. This creates the false choice that targeting Karma, and avoiding the backlash from the crest, is a solid idea, when you're actually just feeding her Inner Flame and increasing her strength by a different path. If she can stand at a reasonably safe distance while her charge bears her crest, how are you actually offering the enemy an opportunity to act on this apparent knowledge in the laning phase?

Silver Bolts has clear counter-play to deny the enemy damage in backing away and preventing them getting the third stack. What is the clear counter-play to "Trying to trade with the enemy makes me take additional damage" other than simply not trading at all?


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GuardianScroll

Junior Member

03-17-2013

I've played Karma for a long time and instantly fell in love with her when I first played her. Although Riot made some good points about Karma being a bit on the weak end, I would have to disagree on certain things, like about how Karma didn't really bring much to a team fight. Any LoL support player would know when the tank is about to initate and ready a mantra shield on him or her. This would help burst down the enemy team and give a shield to the tank that is taking hits. The AoE heal was a great game changing skill when the friendly team looks like they're about to lose a team fight. So Riot you're wrong on that end.

Also when I first read on Karma's ability I knew instantly that her "theme" was Balance. Both sporting offensive and defnsive capabilites, she could do anything. I knew her theme was Balance the moment I read her name, though being a Buddhist may have helped with that. I agree this was a not a theme that really showed "The Iconic Ioinian Leader" easily, and the splash art didn't help either, but I enjoyed the theme of Balance none the less.

Furthermore, thanks to her new kit, Karma is able to use her abilities more effectively in team fights. The shield not only does damage, but also shields the ENTIRE TEAM if mantra'd. I find this to be a wonderful addition to her shield. I also like that her W is great for getting away from ganks and her Q for even more poking.

But, alas, there are some sadness to see that her old passive is being replaced. I personally loved the old passive because this could help the turn the game around, such as when they are right about to ace you and you're being chased by 3 low health champ with low helath yourself. A quick R-E and you can help push to turn the game around.

Also, Karma's W is a bit lacking in orginality and potential. To me, her tether is now an easier to land Leblanc E, being single target cast and not a skill shot.. I liked having the option of slowing enemies or speeding up allies. Cause in lane or after a team fight, you might have to use E to help your teammate get away, but then they are ganked by people with gapclosers, and you're out of range to use your W on an enemy beacuse your teammate has ran away with the help of the earlier speed buff.

This IS just one person's opinion but the forums are meant for opinions to be shared. I hope I made some good points, and thank you Riot, I've been waiting on this rework/relaunch/promotion forever. Go Ionia!


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
The point I, and a few other people were making, was that we never actually read Inner Flame or Karma's character as having a basis in karmic retribution. You're saying that it's the most readable theme of those currently incorporated in her design and yet I had never actually made the connection because it directly contradicts who her lore claims she is supposed to be. It feels to me as though you're imposing a theme on Karma which she isn't supposed to embody, rather than naturally playing up what she represents.
Scarizard (the main designer behind this rework) has said himself Karma lost all 'Karmaticness' about her as soon as they dropped out her passive Inner Flame.

Like I said - maybe old Karma's main focus wasn't 'karma' but it's a fact it was minorly incorperated into her design nontheless: the passive, Inner Flame.

Like I said, the themes she had: Karma (inner flame), Spiritualism (the entire spirit bond thingy), Yin-Yang (her previous default and new floating Yin-Yang symbol on new default)

The most readable theme to convert into a playstyle is 'Karma' - you seem to not argue about that you rather say 'I don't think that should be the main focus because it's not what Karma was about' - which my response on is:

Riot is trying to deliver a champion that's thematically tied as much as it can and to be a champion that is as readable as it can be. If making 'Karma' the main focus is the way to do that, I feel they should as focusing on anything else makes her less thematic and thus less readable which is what entirely has happend with Skarma.

So yes - I agree: Our Redesign Karma doesn't reflect Karma the way she was presented previously.

Our Redesign reflects Karma more by focusing on 'karma' as a theme, as any other main focused theme in her design is going to be less readable (the explanation I gave for yin-yang focus being less readable, just more readable than 'spiritualism' or 'momentum and tension'

Quote:
Knowing that Karma's skills all punish aggression doesn't tell a player anything about how they should respond to them or what they should expect in return. Karma doesn't deliver retribution; her crest delivers retribution while she stands idly by to the side and watches. This creates the false choice that targeting Karma, and avoiding the backlash from the crest, is a solid idea, when you're actually just feeding her Inner Flame and increasing her strength by a different path. If she can stand at a reasonably safe distance while her charge bears her crest, how are you actually offering the enemy an opportunity to act on this apparent knowledge in the laning phase?

Silver Bolts has clear counter-play to deny the enemy damage in backing away and preventing them getting the third stack. What is the clear counter-play to "Trying to trade with the enemy makes me take additional damage" other than simply not trading at all?
ItemsGuy - where?


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ZeroSoulreaver

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuardianScroll View Post
I've played Karma for a long time and instantly fell in love with her when I first played her. Although Riot made some good points about Karma being a bit on the weak end, I would have to disagree on certain things, like about how Karma didn't really bring much to a team fight. Any LoL support player would know when the tank is about to initate and ready a mantra shield on him or her. This would help burst down the enemy team and give a shield to the tank that is taking hits. The AoE heal was a great game changing skill when the friendly team looks like they're about to lose a team fight. So Riot you're wrong on that end.

Also when I first read on Karma's ability I knew instantly that her "theme" was Balance. Both sporting offensive and defnsive capabilites, she could do anything. I knew her theme was Balance the moment I read her name, though being a Buddhist may have helped with that. I agree this was a not a theme that really showed "The Iconic Ioinian Leader" easily, and the splash art didn't help either, but I enjoyed the theme of Balance none the less.

Furthermore, thanks to her new kit, Karma is able to use her abilities more effectively in team fights. The shield not only does damage, but also shields the ENTIRE TEAM if mantra'd. I find this to be a wonderful addition to her shield. I also like that her W is great for getting away from ganks and her Q for even more poking.

But, alas, there are some sadness to see that her old passive is being replaced. I personally loved the old passive because this could help the turn the game around, such as when they are right about to ace you and you're being chased by 3 low health champ with low helath yourself. A quick R-E and you can help push to turn the game around.

Also, Karma's W is a bit lacking in orginality and potential. To me, her tether is now an easier to land Leblanc E, being single target cast and not a skill shot.. I liked having the option of slowing enemies or speeding up allies. Cause in lane or after a team fight, you might have to use E to help your teammate get away, but then they are ganked by people with gapclosers, and you're out of range to use your W on an enemy beacuse your teammate has ran away with the help of the earlier speed buff.

This IS just one person's opinion but the forums are meant for opinions to be shared. I hope I made some good points, and thank you Riot, I've been waiting on this rework/relaunch/promotion forever. Go Ionia!
Hope this post won't get lost in the shuffle of "the great debate". Seriously I like hearing from other people for once. Good point.

I think this rework is going to be a big hit or miss with some people and many are overreacting either too positively or too negatively. I can see people already saying **** if pros don't use her. "Well shes not as good as this other champ so why play her?!" or something silly like this, the same silly line that is always said. Nothing is really going to change honestly.

I'm still gonna play Karma, but this is not going to suddenly make me some fanatical Karma main because I never was. I like Karma but there is a limit to being a fan and just getting a little too serious about this whole thing.


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Whiiz

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Shes look awesome now. WOO!


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Malah

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.
Why can't you guys just come out and say you personally disliked the idea and tossed it out instead of finding some BS design idea to lie to us with? A low HP mechanic works -far- better on a champion with a shield, slow, and who can disengage at range to effectively use it than a melee character who's stuck in combat once he hits that point. I think it's rather rude that you expect us to buy bad logic just because you can't suck up and admit you just don't like something (Karma Fans). Dishonesty with us has, and will, come back to bite you in the ass.


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Knotee

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic.
+1.


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Dobyk

Member

03-17-2013

Wait, why are people discussing alternative Karma redesigns? Riot clearly stated in what direction they are heading Karma, and everything will become clear once and for all on the Tuesday Reddit AMA, (hopefully she will be released on PBE on the same day). There is no point in re-imagining her anymore, because they have already created the new concept and will stick to it. Let us just wait and see how she goes. If we are lucky they might actually buff her in PBE or slightly change mechanics.