So, about that Karma leak...

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Sessamo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Currently she is designed with no theme at all - you could argue her skills are tied to the theme of 'tension' and 'momentum' but it's extremely vague and abstract, hence people have been saying: 'She's just another mage!' or 'Like this she's entirely a new champion!'

With Riot's rework there currently is nothing that ties her together thematically, which is a shame because her visual appearance definetely screames the following themes: yin-yang, karma, spiritualism - all those themes they've dropped all together when designing a kit for her.

Like that, it's pretty misleading, if they wanted to give Karma a new direction to be all about momentum and tension, she should have a visual appearance with it that reflects that, not a visual appearance that reflects yin-yang, karma, and spiritualism and then completely step away of those themes when designing a kit around her.

Pretty much what it boils down to; current Karma it are a bunch of mechanics thrown onto her, it's not a strong thematically tied champion, eventhough Riot claims to want to unify champions with their theme as much as possible.

In other words, they say they'd do A but end up doing B - it doesn't make sense.
I think that's a pretty fair point, they've really dropped most of the karmic aspects of the kit in favour of the 'mantra-state mage' deal. I think they've really painted themselves into a corner.
Old Karma was confusing to a fault in just about every aspect (thematically, visually and gameplay) and I strongly believe he extremely bad performance is from allies simply not having the slightest clue how to play with her. New Karma is a radical new direction, but even with trimming away a ton of her iconic aspects (weapons, colour, passive, %cone heal) you can still see the big attachment to old Karma.
I don't really think there was a way for them to win in the end.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
How do you feel "Heavenly Crest" fares in terms of 'anti-fun'?

Heavenly Crest is a fairly passive skill in small-scale engagements, and the laning phase in particular, but provides a constant annoyance for the enemy if they try to play aggressively and can provide a heavy incentive for the enemy to avoid using any skills whatsoever on their priority target. I realise that it's very appropriate for the "karma" theme but it strikes me as a skill that could potentially cause massive frustration in the enemy if used at all effectively.
ItemsGuy tends to also take into account all of the 'anti-patterns' a design shouldn't have - anti-fun being one of them.

To be honest, what you are doing here is that you are making it seem as if there is literally nothing you can about this heavenly crest.

Please also note that the entire point of the kit is punishing enemy aggression, though at the same time it does not mean that any type of aggresion will be countered by Karma, by no means at all as you can simply outplay her.

You can bait in her Q or a possible QR and then suddenly switch to the real 'intented target'

So be honest - it's no different than not wanting to fight an ADC that is shielded by Janna, it's no different than not wanting to fight an ADC just got healed by Soraka and thus having all of those defensive thats granted on top of that heal.

I understand that it's way more visercal when it comes to this redesign because the crest is present at all times but there is plenty you can do to keep the laning phase dynamic and engaging by outsmarting the Karma player, it's not like she'll be able to defend both her and her carry punishing any type of aggression - most importantly is her entire kit reactive instead of either defensive or aggresive, it's a combination of both with a reactive flavor.

That said - some type of characters tend to be 'more boring' to lane against yet I think this Redesign would fit in especially comparing it to current Soraka as this Karma Redesign gets nowhere near her passive nature.

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Why trade with the enemy if you're going to receive damage for doing so, and even more if they reciprocate, or risk using skills like Taric's Dazzle if they could easily be turned against you?
You can bait this out - like moving towards an ADC aggresively, baiting out an enemy janna shield on the ADC, then disengage until the effect wears off or jump on Janna instead.

Same could go here - bait her using Q on the ADC or even QR, then wait until the effects wear off so you can force a trade (enemy karma skills would be on cooldown) or jump on Karma herself instead while you haven't blown your stun yet.

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A further point:

Aren't there more than a few skills that could lead to very awkward results if reflected?

For example:

Blitzcrank's Rocket Grab
Ahri's Charm
Rammus' Puncturing Taunt
Nami's Tidal Wave
This is a good point and something that would need more thinking and would need some more work on - though I hope it's safe to say our Redesign is worth mentioning and worth getting Riot's opinion on, the issue you just mentioned above I do not find a reason to entirely drop the Redesign as a whole, I agree it is an issue and looks extremely problematic right now, but perhaps there are tons of solutions to it.

'Impossible' is a term designers do not like to use often as 9 out of 10 times you can easily make things work as you are the designer, you are the one that is control of what's happening.

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One other odd case:

Talon's Cuthroat doesn't deal damage but silences the target and applies a debuff. Would it pass through the Mantra'd Heavenly Crest?
'Additionally, any negative effects (CC, resistance shreds, etc.) created by the blocked damage are redirected to the attacker'

I know there is no damage here involved, but I'm pretty sure ItemsGuy would intend that also 'just cc' can be redirected and not just pass through.

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Perhaps more critically: How are players supposed to know that their own abilities will be turned against them, except through unfortunate experience?
Through particles/visual effects - like seeing when Annie's stun is up or Kassadin's force pulse is up.

Imagine a huge spiritual looking shield/glow around the target affected by the 'redirecting spellshield' - stuff like that can make things pretty obvious.

Lack of visual clarity was a problem with Karma's old design, her passive, there was nothing really telling you that she was getting stronger/was getting increased AP the lower HP she got - the only reason you could tell would be by looking at her actual stats and see her AP went up as her HP ticks down.

For example - with this new default you could make it clear something is happening when you are bringing her lower and lower in HP - for example that her yin yang crest and her tattoo's barely glow when full HP but tend to get more shiny and glowy the lower HP she gets which is fairly readable - 'wait what she's charging with power or energy the lower HP she has!'


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikado Kuro View Post
Karma: "B-but I'm a support! I don't want to do lots of damage!"
Riot: "Oh? Well, go find someone who WANTS you to support them then in your current form? Go ahead, we'll wait.."

-five hours later-

Karma: "So, about this damage?.."
Any bruiser loves my support. Most fun i had was poppy/karma bot the dmg and CC together made us own the lane no matter what <3 and after lane phase i could keep up the majorty of the team constantly..


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Sessamo View Post
I think that's a pretty fair point, they've really dropped most of the karmic aspects of the kit in favour of the 'mantra-state mage' deal.
Yep - which essentially has made Karma less Karma.

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Old Karma was confusing to a fault in just about every aspect (thematically, visually and gameplay) and I strongly believe he extremely bad performance is from allies simply not having the slightest clue how to play with her.
Yes.


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New Karma is a radical new direction, but even with trimming away a ton of her iconic aspects (weapons, colour, passive, %cone heal) you can still see the big attachment to old Karma.
The removal of the fans was a decision in terms of making her more readable, on top of that, stuff like the %cone heal are yet again just a bunch of mechanics not really readable because it's not thematically tied or it doesn't work to one common goal.

The random cone heal and random shield in her old kit are just like the new kit a bunch of mechanics that wasn't really associated with anything, they were pretty much there for the sake of being there, 'Karma has a cone heal and a shield because she has that'.

This is why I feel they have failed to deliver both thematically and concerning readability, the Karma Rework could've been a rework where they ty her thematically both through kit and visual appearance and readability: all of the abilities working to one common goal so that the mechanics no longer feel random for the sake of being there, in our Redesign's case the goal of 'Karma' or 'What goes around, comes around'

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I don't really think there was a way for them to win in the end.
'Impossible' is not a term designers like to use as 99 out of 100 times everything is able to be fixed and improved on, I feel they just have chickened out of making Karma a thematically tied champion because it would be more of a challenge and ended up taking the easy way out and turning her into a character with 'just a kit that flows fell together' but with no real distinctive purpose behind it.


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Well ... you can't do anything to avoid the passive damage from attacking the crest bearer. Any skills or auto-attacks used against them will result in you taking damage, even if Karma doesn't activate the skill, and she has a heal to mitigate whatever damage you may inflict in a trade. In the case of two ranged carrys occasionally trading attacks in the laning phase, it certainly provides a certain incentive to limit how much you attack your enemy. You can compare her active to the shields or heals of other characters but neither of those skills provides a constant penalty for attempting to trade.

As for the active: I agree entirely, I simply think that it could prove horribly demoralising for players who rely on predictable skills such as Taric's Dazzle.

I disagree that this iteration of Karma would prove less passive than Soraka, at least in the supporting role. Karma has no particular incentive to be close to her enemy, other than to harass with auto-attacks, as none of her skills are targeted on enemies, two of them involve buffing a friendly target and the third certainly sounds as though it only affects a modest AoE around a friendly target - I may be interpreting that incorrectly though. Soraka can harass regularly with Infuse; how does your Karma harry the enemy?

Why would Karma want to be in the "danger zone" during the laning phase if she is supporting a ranged character?

Lastly, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to convey with my final question:

There are currently no abilities in the game which reflect spell effects; there are shields which block spells but nothing that applies their effects onto the caster. How are players supposed to know that they'll be hit by their own abilities, before they've been unfortunate enough to already suffer that plight, and how would you clearly convey that was happening?


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Sessamo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post

'Impossible' is not a term designers like to use as 99 out of 100 times everything is able to be fixed and improved on, I feel they just have chickened out of making Karma a thematically tied champion because it would be more of a challenge and ended up taking the easy way out and turning her into a character with 'just a kit that flows fell together' but with no real distinctive purpose behind it.
I think that's fair when you have a new champion to work with, but the rules change when you're working with the stepmother that Karma has become. Even if they gave her an objectively perfect kit, I think there would still be a lot of disappointed fans simply because what they loved was no more.

Edit: not that I think stepmom syndrome gives them a free pass, I still think her passive should have kept as Inner Flame. I think it had a lot of play to it (for a passive) and I think it unified her theme really well.


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MrTharne

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
in our Redesign's case the goal of 'Karma' or 'What goes around, comes around'.
I think that the problem is right here.

People are putting to much "karma" into Karma, in all her lore there is no mention about the concept of karma. Even her ingame quotes don't mention this concept.

The only thing you can find, in her lore, is maybe : "By tapping into her inner resilience, she discovered that she could bring great force to bear against her foes on the battlefield.". Which you can match with her current passive : Inner Flame. And even that can be taken with different meanings, i never thought of it as a concept of karma but like the manifestation of her will to live. (Kind of like a manga/anime way when a character is about to lose/die and he summons an incredible amount of power).

People are pushing the 'karma' feeling to much into her, i never felt that it was her theme at all, it's not because her name is Karma than her theme is the concept of karma. (or else Graves's theme is to bury people and throw grave at them...or you know have Yorick's kit)


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Dobyk

Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
I'm sorry but they aren't "limited by their melee nature' in the slightest bit.

Olaf's got CC immunity and permaslow, and Tryndamere has that spin, his slow, and his ultimate.

There seems to be a misconception about melee being some sort of massive drawback, but because of all the gapclosers and permaslow, along with significantly better base stats? Being melee is a blessing.

And Karma wasn't exactly a squishy. And there's nothing wrong with a tankier caster.
What do you mean "she is not exactly a squishy" ???? She IS squishy, for God's sake. People, stop complaining about the passive, they are not going to return it, and it IS counterintuitive and trollish. Geez


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Dobyk

Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTharne View Post
I think that the problem is right here.

People are putting to much "karma" into Karma, in all her lore there is no mention about the concept of karma. Even her ingame quotes don't mention this concept.

The only thing you can find, in her lore, is maybe : "By tapping into her inner resilience, she discovered that she could bring great force to bear against her foes on the battlefield.". Which you can match with her current passive : Inner Flame. And even that can be taken with different meanings, i never thought of it as a concept of karma but like the manifestation of her will to live. (Kind of like a manga/anime way when a character is about to lose/die and he summons an incredible amount of power).

People are pushing the 'karma' feeling to much into her, i never felt that it was her theme at all, it's not because her name is Karma than her theme is the concept of karma. (or else Graves's theme is to bury people and throw grave at them...or you know have Yorick's kit)
This, this and this. Thank you


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTharne View Post
People are pushing the 'karma' feeling to much into her, i never felt that it was her theme at all, it's not because her name is Karma than her theme is the concept of karma. (or else Graves's theme is to bury people and throw grave at them...or you know have Yorick's kit)
I have to agree with this, really.

Karma's lore establishes her as a great mediator who could weather hardship and somehow find a way to bring something better out of it. She's presented as someone very centred and balanced who would willingly suffer to lighten the burden of others, utterly focussed on facing whatever challenges lie before her head-on. There's no suggestion of karmic retribution and the implication is that her passive represents her own "inner resilience" and conviction, rather than being something to do with making the enemy pay for their misdeeds.

Her Judgement puts her forward as someone governed by reason, rather than retribution. While still in burning agony from Zaunite acid eating away at her flesh, she still maintains that "All we can do is remain vigilant and try to protect those we love", rather than calling for the Noxians and their allies to receive their deserved punishment. Her "Inner Flame" is her ability to channel her own suffering into strength and purpose, not some karmic backlash against her foes.

She burns all the brighter in the heart of the storm.