So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Hey guys, I'm Bestbilbo and people might know me from the 'Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be Thread' - I'm also known to be working together with a guy called 'ItemsGuy'

Now this is our proposal for Karma (please give feedback!), but before I show you our version of Karma, let's analyze her as a character and her current visual appearance.


Quote:
In her new default - the following is present in her visual design that are extremely characteristic to the themes she is obviously supposed to reflect:

-Taijitu

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Taijitu - it's basically another word for Yin and Yang - the green glowing dragons that are visually present on her new default skin represent Yin and Yang and dragons are commonly used to represent the symbol of Yin and Yang.

-Eastern-style tattoos (dragon)

-Glowing

And over-all the entire dress and the fact they show more of her skin gives a bigger indication and representation of how the character is influenced.

The weight of the spiritual stuff in the new one is the huge floating yin-yang
Everything else just helps tie Karma to it visually.

Taijitu is green and glowing? Karma is green and glowing. It shows that there is some supernatural "energy" to her, which can then be associated with "spiritual energy" due to the visual ties to the taijitu.
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They've incoperated the three following themes in her visual appearance:

Karma
Yin-Yang
Spiritualism

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I hope that you are already understanding what I'm getting at - Ashe has the theme 'frost archer' so she looks like an archer with a frost bow and plays like one, Olaf's theme is 'berzerker' so he totally looks like one and thus plays like one, Brand's theme is 'fire' or 'firemage' so he looks like one and plays like one, Rengar is a hunter/predatorso he looks like one and plays like one, Z.A.C's theme is 'blob-guy' so he looks like an actual blob and plays like one.

We can safely say that especially with default skins of champions they try to capture the core essence of what the champion is supposed to reflect through visual appearance and through playstyle - it wouldn't make any sense if for example Brand looks how he looks but ends up spewing out water instead of fire, would it?

Now Karma's new default screams the following three themes: Karma, Yin-Yang and Spiritualism - it's extremely vague, abstract and not readable if she doesn't reflect those themes at all and ends up being a character that reflects a playstyle of 'tension' and 'momentum'.

In fact, it's pretty darn misleading and thus harder to understand which is what you want to avoid at all costs in a game that has over 100 characters.

The entire reason the community is upset about all of this because they've basically ripped Karma apart with her new kit, she is supposed to represent yin-yang, karma and spiritualism but ends up doing something else entirely with this new rework, hence all of the reactions: 'Hurr durr this ain't Karma anymore, this could entirely be a new champion!'

---

That said - I hope you guys are interested in our suggestion/solution/version of Karma.

I present to you:


Karma, the Enlightened One - Redesign.

Quote:
Three aspects were focused on with this Redesign made by ItemsGuy:

Consistant theming with a heavier focus on 'Karma'

Readability: with the more focus on 'karma' as a theme the entire kit is extremely readable and players would know immediately what they are dealing with.

With her current kit you aren't really helping anything by saying the playstyle is about 'momentum' and 'tension' - it's way too abstract and vague and still requires people to read the tooltips and memorize her abilities/mechanics instead of immediately getting what she's all about from the get go.

With this Redesign you'd simply only have to say 'KARMA, BRO!' or 'WHAT GOES AROUND, COMES AROUND!' - as the entire playstyle revolves around punishing enemy aggression, as the entire kit automatically directly fires any harm done to allies back at the opponents who did the damage in the first place, something that is extremely characteristic and commonly known concerning 'karma'.

Counterplay.
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I assume you have lots of questions and perhaps even critique about what I've just presented to you and to the rest of the people in this thread, note that the most important part is that the champion is readable and is supposed to represent all of the themes that unify Karma as a character throughout her kit as well and not just only her visual appearance.

ItemsGuy will be here and would love to explain the thought-process behind all of his decisions and reasoning behind the making of this Redesign and answer any question thrown at him.

Sincerely,

Bilbo

EDIT: Please also don't take this as me just advertizing our work - were here and I've posted this because people look at this rework as a problem so I've posted this as I feel this is an indication of a rework that does reflect what Karma is supposed to reflect..

The current Karma rework we see as a problem due to all of the reasons mentioned above and the community screams a loud resounding 'NO!' because of that - this input of ours is a possible suggestion or solution, or at least an indication of how Karma could have been while still keeping every element of what she is supposed to represent, but being improved on compared to previous Karma because with this Redesign she's actually readable as every ability works to one common and graspable goal.

PS: What do you guys think about our Redesign? The goal was to make the entire playstyle revolve around 'karma' or 'what goes around, comes around' so she's a more readable and better representation of what Karma is supposed to be like compared to her actual current rework.


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Sessamo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Wowzers, first time reading Bilbo's rework.
I think you did a really good working a kit around the ying-yang / karma theme, but I think the actual theme itself is probably too limiting and why Riot seemed to have trimmed a lot of it out.
I think one of the giant pitfalls of niche champions is that they don't really have the option of subtle kits, because there's just too many champions at this point and niche champions do not catch on even if they're overpowered.

I'm guessing one of the big sources of contention in the Karma remake is that they're redesigning her with a pretty clear focus on solo, when old Karma was pretty 50/50 as to whether she was solo or support.


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Strawberrycocoa

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Senior Member

03-17-2013

I feel like the effect of Gathering Fire should just be a passive effect of Mantra itself instead of Karma's champion passive. It feels to me like an ability condition more than a Champion passive. I'd like to se the current Gathering Fire folded into Mantra as an ability condition and replaced with an actual passive that follows this new aggressive support with incentive to auto-attack.

Maybe she could have the old Gemcraft passive: basic attacks replenish Karma's mama.
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Jinxed It

Junior Member

03-17-2013

@ BestBilbo / ItemsGuy

Thank you. At least someone who is seeing Karma as a great support Champ that she ALWAYS was when she was handled well and not as a new "AP top/mid". She WAS a support, I don't know why ANYONE should rework her as an AP. :/ It makes me - as a looong time since release Karma lover and support player - so extremly sad that they take my fav sup champ to rework her to an AP... :/ She was doing fine. She needed some tweaks - support (!) tweaks. I love your rework, that's a Karma (!) and not a new Champ with an old name and one old skin.

So Riot:
New style, new story, new role, why not making a new champ and rework Karma as the support she is and always was.......

Karma: "He guys, I'm a battle healer for years looking for a new job where I can show my old skills and maybe get a few new ones so that I'll be needed again."
Riot: "Here, Mrs. Battle Healer Karma, take a job as a MURDERING MACHINE..."
Karma: "But I'm supporting my team...."
Riot: "NOT ANYMORE, DMG!!!! You have a selfheal and shield so stop crying!"
Karma: "But I was supporting my team with my skillshot AOE heals and..."
Riot: "DMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!"


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Sessamo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strawberrycocoa View Post
I feel like the effect of Gathering Fire should just be a passive effect of Mantra itself instead of Karma's champion passive. It feels to me like an ability condition more than a Champion passive. I'd like to se the current Gathering Fire folded into Mantra as an ability condition and replaced with an actual passive that follows this new aggressive support with incentive to auto-attack.

Maybe she could have the old Gemcraft passive: basic attacks replenish Karma's mama.
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It seems like just about everybody is going to miss old Inner Flame. I hope they do seriously consider shifting a weaker version of her Gathering Flame passive onto the ult and give her the missing hp -> AP passive.
It'd make old Karma players happy of both strokes, and it's a pretty on-theme passive even on new Karma.


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Mikado Kuro

Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by North Crusade View Post
I'm always blown away by how much Riot really cares about their fanbase!

Great job!
Haaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha ha -gasp, knee slap- haaaaaaaaaahahhahhahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhaaahh ahhh hahaha...ha....haha.

I'd pay to go to your comedy show.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sessamo View Post
I think the actual theme itself is probably too limiting and why Riot seemed to have trimmed a lot of it out.
Currently she is designed with no theme at all - you could argue her skills are tied to the theme of 'tension' and 'momentum' but it's extremely vague and abstract, hence people have been saying: 'She's just another mage!' or 'Like this she's entirely a new champion!'

With Riot's rework there currently is nothing that ties her together thematically, which is a shame because her visual appearance definetely screames the following themes: yin-yang, karma, spiritualism - all those themes they've dropped all together when designing a kit for her.

Like that, it's pretty misleading, if they wanted to give Karma a new direction to be all about momentum and tension, she should have a visual appearance with it that reflects that, not a visual appearance that reflects yin-yang, karma, and spiritualism and then completely step away of those themes when designing a kit around her.

Pretty much what it boils down to; current Karma it are a bunch of mechanics thrown onto her, it's not a strong thematically tied champion, eventhough Riot claims to want to unify champions with their theme as much as possible.

In other words, they say they'd do A but end up doing B - it doesn't make sense.


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Mikado Kuro

Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyca View Post
@ BestBilbo / ItemsGuy

Thank you. At least someone who is seeing Karma as a great support Champ that she ALWAYS was when she was handled well and not as a new "AP top/mid". She WAS a support, I don't know why ANYONE should rework her as an AP. :/ It makes me - as a looong time since release Karma lover and support player - so extremly sad that they take my fav sup champ to rework her to an AP... :/ She was doing fine. She needed some tweaks - support (!) tweaks. I love your rework, that's a Karma (!) and not a new Champ with an old name and one old skin.

So Riot:
New style, new story, new role, why not making a new champ and rework Karma as the support she is and always was.......

Karma: "He guys, I'm a battle healer for years looking for a new job where I can show my old skills and maybe get a few new ones so that I'll be needed again."
Riot: "Here, Mrs. Battle Healer Karma, take a job as a MURDERING MACHINE..."
Karma: "But I'm supporting my team...."
Riot: "NOT ANYMORE, DMG!!!! You have a selfheal and shield so stop crying!"
Karma: "But I was supporting my team with my skillshot AOE heals and..."
Riot: "DMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Karma: "B-but I'm a support! I don't want to do lots of damage!"
Riot: "Oh? Well, go find someone who WANTS you to support them then in your current form? Go ahead, we'll wait.."

-five hours later-

Karma: "So, about this damage?.."


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-17-2013

How do you feel "Heavenly Crest" fares in terms of 'anti-fun'?

Heavenly Crest is a fairly passive skill in small-scale engagements, and the laning phase in particular, but provides a constant annoyance for the enemy if they try to play aggressively and can provide a heavy incentive for the enemy to avoid using any skills whatsoever on their priority target. I realise that it's very appropriate for the "karma" theme but it strikes me as a skill that could potentially cause massive frustration in the enemy if used at all effectively.

Why trade with the enemy if you're going to receive damage for doing so, and even more if they reciprocate, or risk using skills like Taric's Dazzle if they could easily be turned against you?

A further point:

Aren't there more than a few skills that could lead to very awkward results if reflected?

For example:

Blitzcrank's Rocket Grab
Ahri's Charm
Rammus' Puncturing Taunt
Nami's Tidal Wave

One other odd case:

Talon's Cuthroat doesn't deal damage but silences the target and applies a debuff. Would it pass through the Mantra'd Heavenly Crest?

Perhaps more critically: How are players supposed to know that their own abilities will be turned against them, except through unfortunate experience?


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyca View Post
@ BestBilbo / ItemsGuy

Thank you. At least someone who is seeing Karma as a great support Champ that she ALWAYS was when she was handled well and not as a new "AP top/mid". She WAS a support, I don't know why ANYONE should rework her as an AP. :/ It makes me - as a looong time since release Karma lover and support player - so extremly sad that they take my fav sup champ to rework her to an AP... :/ She was doing fine. She needed some tweaks - support (!) tweaks. I love your rework, that's a Karma (!) and not a new Champ with an old name and one old skin.
All credit goes to ItemsGuy - I'm just the messenger

That said - it was completely the point to make Karma as much as she can be Karma and not turn her into a generic mage that has mage abilities slapped onto her.

On top of that, 'Karma' as a main focus to be converted to gameplay turned to naturally fit the support role, I could see the Redesign able to be played mid-lane, but then you'd still be having a similar role like Zilean mid - a complete supportive utility monster for your team rather than straight up front damage.

I'm glad you like our Redesign, we really like to say 'no offense' to Riot and to Scarizard, but with their Rework there is not really anything that keeps Karma, well... Karma. Which is a shame as they have hit the nail right on the head with her visual rework but then not deliver that with her actual kitrework.