So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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StevenStealBurg

Junior Member

03-16-2013

karma can heal herself now not you but i like the sheilding the whole team in an enemy fight better! LOL


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Gen Nakazora

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Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.
I have to disagree with you on one point. Karma's passive did not encourage being at low health. It helped you when you were by increasing the heal and shield. Its why it was a bad idea to dive Karma. As well as having both, they got stronger.
And AD characters now have an incentive all around. Maw of Malmortius's passive AD gain promotes the same for AD characters in this way. And anyone can get it. It may not be a necessary item, and people can counter argue that. All I am saying, is having the ability to be stronger at low health is not incentive to BE low health. Just a back up plan when you are.


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The5lacker View Post
The problem is this Karma doesn't have a passive, and while she does benefit from constant harass, she doesn't exactly have many tools FOR said constant harass. Her skillshot is more than likely blocked by minions, which IS counterplay (Merely being a skillshot isn't, but being blockable allows for an enemy to position themselves in such a way as to be un-hitable.), her tether, though targeted, is a DoT skill she has to maintain, and her shield is only a damaging skill if used WITH Mantra.

In fact, now that I think about it, Karma doesn't have a kit that really allows her to focus on harass much at all. Her skillshot has a slowing field and, when Mantra-d, a second burst which only comes into play when the enemy commits to an attack. She has a tether that roots after a duration, which requires her to be there for the whole duration, which doesn't make for a terribly effective harass. Really, all of Karma's kit right now seems to be focused less on harassment and more on COUNTERING harassment, which is exactly why her old passive would fit so well into it.

The old Karma passive required that people play smart in a new way. Her new passive requires that people try to avoid getting hit, which is second in the list of things to learn in LoL, right after "ATTACK THE ENEMY."
Obviously this is total conjecture but have we actually heard anything about whether Karma's new Q goes through minions? I'd also point out that she can proc her passive though auto-attacks.

If Karma's whole kit was built around countering aggression, why would her current passive make any real sense with it? Her passive encourages you to avoid casting spells for as long as possible and wouldn't have any obvious synergy with either her new slow or tether, especially if the enemy had gap-closers or hard CC. The only reason her old passive looks attractive in this regard is because it's a means of making her skills more effective, not because it provides any new ways for you to use them. You're still doing exactly the same thing, and your enemy still playing into your hands for it to work out, you'll just do more damage and take less.

Her old passive didn't encourage players to "play smart in a new way" but rather encourage them to take risks and hope the enemy would play along. A smart opponent would understand the danger involved and act accordingly but this wouldn't involve any sort of change in playstyle or unique gameplay. They simply would treat you as if you were stronger than your healthbar implied. The 'original' thing was that the Karma player could choose to put themself out there and hope that things turned out for the best, rather than backing off like anyone else would've at that point. I wouldn't call that sort of gamble "[playing] smart".

The subtly brilliant thing about changing Karma's passive is that you don't need to be on low health to do that sort of thing any more. You can put her mid against an assassin who likes to dive and actually focus on blocking their damage, rather than only reaping the benefits as they wear you down. I understand that you value that specific moment of gameplay provided by your passive but do you really think it's worth binding it down to the condition of you being in your weakest state, rather than simply being an inherent part of who the character is?

New Karma will always be good at countering aggression but in her current state that only truly feels rewarding when you do it at low health. I'd say its an improvement if players can now play her without feeling like her passive is going to waste when they're actually winning the game and aren't having to take big risks to do what she does best.


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Orconem

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.
But I love Huskar, he taught me the value of sacrifice


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Sphinxie

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Member

03-16-2013

As a Karma Support play I have this.
Karma's old passive: It played in with her name. You hit her, she gets something in return sort of balancing the scale if you will. It was a lot of fun to bait out an enemy ad carry and their support when you had your jungle otw low health = big shield/heal
Karma's old Q: Skill shot heal, this was a fun and engaging ability, it was more interactive than any other heal being a target or just auto heal which is lame. Although there are major drawbacks when you think about your team not cooperating in order to get the biggest and best effect -> that which can make using that ability a negative.
Karma's Shield: Good shield regardless of ability power or the ramp up which is damage only from a mantra charge. The shield is on par with a lot of other cast on ally support shields.
The biggest negative to the Original Karma was the need to build so much CDR and the fact that she had no hard cc.
New Karma I cannot say much about. Haven't played her yet. I do think though that I lost a champion that I loved to play and was told many months ago to just stop playing her because he rework would be coming out much sooner than it did. So I missed out on some really good times playing as one of my favorite champions aside from some stray games when I just had to play her again. I do feel like the new Karma is just a new champion that needs a new name and just Delete the name Karma and any associated lore, abilities, etc. I partially think that it would have been better to delete her than keep her in as something that has nothing to do with her name at all.
Karma should be about Balance if her team is getting beat up what better way to balance out the odds then to shield and heal?
The rest, her new kit, run away or chase down and damage doesn't feel like karma.
Also: I love empowered women as much as the next person, I do. In fact being a woman myself I love how strong a woman can be BUT empowered does not mean big breasted and scantily clad which is fine on its own as well. It just does not have a place with karma. You can be powerful and serene look at whales. Graceful as anything much smaller than their size but as powerful as their size implies. Karma doesn't need to have a trendy new look cutting out her fans and showing more leg. There is a power in silence and calm. I am afraid riot no longer can come up with a "romantic" idea like Leona's story where she showed strength in what some would call weakness. She would not kill a friend she was matched against and she was ready to lay down her life in order to preserve his. That is true strength not being a buff chick but the kind of person that thinks about their actions and do not rely on instinct with abilities that just allow you to react and not think. This being said the changes are already made and the rework is scheduled to be up on the PBE. Riot will not be changing what they already cultivated and think is a great champion or they wouldn't be so close to letting it be out in the public.
RIOT I hope you have made 'An Enlightened Decision' and many more in the future
Balance in all things
I will miss my Karma dearly.


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Ordosan

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Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.
So is there going to be a 3rd champion to retrieve the old passive(since ryzehad it in the early day before karma ,will the touch be passed on it?)


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TuCraiN

Junior Member

03-16-2013

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO! NO!!!

This makes me so sad. I love the way karma looks and plays. I cannot describe how bummed I am about the new look, I think it's silly compared to her old zen artwork. AND IF YOU LOVE ME RIOT PLEASE LEAVE HER PASSIVE ART AS A YIN YANG!!

It seems as if riot wants her art and playstyle to fit her lore, but the new art feels farther from the enlightened zen concept and more.... magical.


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deeeej

Member

03-16-2013

How about reworking sivirs model what the ****


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TuCraiN

Junior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
It's all about risk-reward. Karma takes the risk of minimizing her health? She gets the reward of maximizing that bonus AP. Will jumping to a jungle camp with the redesign kit and getting down to 20 HP allow her abilities to pack a bit more punch? Certainly! However, she then runs the risk of giving the enemy team a free kill if their jungler decides to gank, and there's not much she can do if the opposing support decides to walk into a side-bush and zone her out.

In its current context, Inner Flame is about encouraging Karma players to get to low HP--this is the only real defined goal, since the rest of her kit lacks one (beyond fulfilling a role). Since redesign!Karma is given the task of "reciprocating aggression," the berserker-style Innate is more of a compliment than a core focus, as it becomes more about helping Karma reciprocate aggression and working to eliminate the "support helplessness" that many of the pre-Thresh supports suffer from. Context is key!



Then this creates a situation that is full of tension--that creates excitement. The redesign focuses around clutch gameplay, meaning that Karma players are rewarded for using their abilities skillfully. If you don't want to have that kind of control over the flow of battle, feel free to pick up any of the other 110 champions--however, if you want to lay down the law with karmatic conviction, Karma's your gal.

Also, if Karma is "easily baited," that is only due to a substantial skill gap between her and her opponent. If they feign in to bait out her Q and Karma uses her Q? Bam, counterplay--Karma's opponent is rewarded for outplaying her. If they feign to bait out her Q and Karma reads it, and saves it for when they do go on the offensive? Bam, Karma has outplayed her opponent, and is rewarded for it.



"Not fighting," in the sense that you're not throwing out flashy fireballs or breaking necks. Karma is not a fighter--she controls the flow of battle, imposing her will on her enemies. If this is what kind of gameplay you enjoy, then that's why you'd play Karma. If you prefer jumping on people and making them explode, something like Talon or Kha'Zix would probably be more to your preference.



Please don't make me repeat myself--Karma doesn't lack offense (it's present in her Q and E--she deals damage and directly inhibits opponents, that's offense), she lacks aggressiveness. She isn't aggressive or defensive, she's reactive--she takes enemy aggression and turns it against them. This lack of aggression on her part allows her to be a force to be reckoned with, dictating what her enemies can and cannot do.



That depends on which Mantra you're talking about--each has its own purpose. (R)Q is for immediately turning back any greater level of aggression--whether that's initiation or a powerful trade. (R)E is for initiation and escape--allowing her to either prevent an enemy from flashing out of reach and then leaving them open to a full-out offense from her teammates, or allowing her to create a gap while ensuring that her aggressor doesn't simply close it back up then and there.

Would you want to "waste" your Q if an ally is initiating and the enemy shows no intention of counterattack? No, a simple (R)W would be your friend here. However, if you want to turn an enemy initiation right on its rear, a quick (R)Q (R)W is the cool thing to do.

Also, if your ally gets up close to an enemy and you press E--congratulations, you just did some damage! Maxing E would ideal if gap-closing is a thing that's happening on either end. Also also, in lane, "choosing who to defend" is 50-50--and chances are, the answer isn't you, because you're not the one your opponents want to chase away from minions. You're pretty much keeping your Q on your ally at all times, while still staying within exp range and sitting in a bush if you want to zone (by walking up to your lane opponent and doing a quick Q -> W).



Avoid what, now? If you're talking about Seal range--I think I mentioned that it's 800 in the redesign. That's a fair amount of elbow room.



Again, don't believe Seal range is less than Crow Toss's bounce range (450 is less than 800), and I don't see what Blitz's grab has to do with an ally being close to you--much less how it could be an "abusable loophole."



...If you're out of position. If your enemies catch you out of position, they should be rewarded. If they create an opening in your defenses, they should be rewarded. If they outplay you, they should be rewarded. This element of counterplay is what allows Karma to be powerful when played well. This is something the human brain likes.



If somebody is chasing your dude, (R)W -> (R)E should do the trick (not much you can say against a silence, slow, heal, and % damage reduction--provided they have a decent avenue of escape). Also warding, which is a thing supports do!

Again, I appreciate your responses, but I think the answers to your concerns can be found with a little extra careful thinking.

Please listen to this man and don't change Karma. Some people LOVE Karma, why take that away from them? There are plenty of other champions to choose from, she doesnt need to be popular....


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SoresuMakashi

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.
Playing Karma well is trolling.

Riot confirmed :P