So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Zovea

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0neWinged View Post
She's gone form support to hard APC. No heal = not support anymore.
Most champions that can interact with an allied champion are considered support. Look at Nidalee.


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Gen Nakazora

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Senior Member

03-16-2013

Alright, time for second rant. lol Just stick with me, I'm more or less going off my own experiences. People may not agree. Just like I'm sure some would not agree how I used Orianna when Surge was around. lol But that is off topic.

The current Karma, as many have stated, is a balance between supporting the team, and bursting the enemies. She is outclassed by at least one person in both, but none have quite the combination as she does. Honestly, for bursty supports, I personally think Taric may be closer to her than some.

I always loved Karma's power to push, even as a tanky support. She can shield minions, to add to their defensive power from turrets, heal team, including said minions, to keep the push going, and slow the enemies while speeding her team to pile on anyone out of position.

On top of that, her heal on Q could be used to take some cheap hits while running, healing yourself to survive another hit, then shielding. Spirit Bond then provides more space to do that.

I know for a fact that Karma's burst is more overpowered than it seems. Taking out minion waves in two, possibly 1 spell proves this. Against champions, this burst doubles as sustain. If you catch her off guard, she will need perfect timing to get out of it. However, this is the same for many characters. She could win a 1v1, just because she was prepared to sustain.

With the new Karma, I am seeing this. 1. She has lost some sustain, since now she is more burst. She has a self heal, but it requires you to mantra, and hope you either A. Survive, or B. stay in range long enough. 2. She has lost ALL of her AOE potential if she has only 1 mantra. Before, her Q was a somewhat weaker AOE cone in front of her. But EVERYTHING in it was hit. Her W required positioning, but it could swipe all 5 enemy champions if you did it right. E hasn't changed in that regard, but the loss of the other two will make it less... devastating. Her new Q only hits an area if you use mantra, her W can only hit 1 person period, and her E... again, no change in that regard. So, now we get another bursty single target mage, who probably can't do as well at it as say, Leblanc.

I also see how some people have compared her new abilities to other champions. Where before, Karma held only a few similarities, a heal, a slow, and a shield, now she seems like everyone else. Q plus Mantra can be compared to Lucent Singularity, her new W can be compared to Ethereal Chains, and with mantra, Drain, and her shield... well, again, little change, to which is the only thing I can never rant against. Love Karma's Shield.

As for the fans... Eh, that's your choice Riot. I personally like them, but I see your reasoning. But your back story for her placed them not as weapons, but as symbols, just like the new Jade Dragons. She didn't NEED the fans. They were HERS. There was no other reason behind it. They were her symbols of Ionia, and balance.

The looks. On the new base skin, I have to agree with people who say that now she looks more like what Karma was not supposed to look. More 'sexy', less traditional. Her Traditional skin looks good. I like it. Then again, I never though Karma looked bad in game. She was one that, for the time she was made, looked REALLY good. In fact, after it was first announced that she was getting a visual upgrade, I did a small rant to my friends about how she looked good in game compared to many. So... not entirely needed.

On another note, on Remakes in general. So far, 1 of the 3 reworks I have been around for has succeeded, and even then, with mixed reviews. Eve. The new Twitch, failed. The new Sivir, while it did not fail, did not succeed either. I played both. When I'm forced into ADC, Sivir is one of the 3 I choose from. Twitch... I can't play him anymore. At all. He is too squishy, and his OLD skillset allowed him to get away with it. Now, you have to get to late game to do anything with him. So, with this track record, I would say you need to back off and REALLY look at what you are about to do, and listen to the opinion of the players, ALL OF THEM, not just Karma haters or lovers. This is a player oriented game, and ignoring them will only cause unneeded strife. As it stands, I may not play new Karma, cause she looks WORSE to me. MUCH!

Thank you all for your time.
Gen Nakazora, Lover of the Underplayed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zovea View Post
Most champions that can interact with an allied champion are considered support. Look at Nidalee.
PS, since this was posted before I finished. Your point is kinda invalid with Nid, if you are arguing against heals. She does have one after all.


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SirLapse

Junior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Degu Fresh Style View Post
I love her new image. I'm rather sad her "fans" couldn't be kept. I felt that's what made her unique as a character as well has her mantra consumption skills. No one else used fans. Now she's just using her mantle thing. I mean yes it's kinda unique but Irelia has a mantle of blades. So it's basically the same thing.

I also liked how her outfit wasn't so revealing because she felt more kept since she is the "Enlighted One" or was. So I'm glad you guys are giving her old skin to people who owned her. *was a person who bought her double bundle outright*

Well, I'm excited to see how she turns out nonetheless. I am one of those Karma diehards. Haha.
Mantra and mantle are two completely different things.

I'd rather have a high-res model, and so does everyone else. The conservative look should've been kept, yes. But, part of the reason many players didn't pick her was because of her look. The traditional only doesn't match up due to the new high-res model, otherwise they would've at least tried to give a more conservative model.


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IceHound

Senior Member

03-16-2013

I like the traditional Karma skin over the one you're changing it to, glad to know as a original karma owner I'll be able to use if once this goes live! Thanks riot!


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gartho33

Junior Member

03-16-2013

As happy as I am to see Karma getting the TLC she so needs.... this kit... kills her support capability.... I mean.... a self heal? really? NO! NO NO NO AND DOUBLE NO!!!! I'm fine with the fan loss or even a full revamp of her other skills... but the thing that made Karma was that ability to carry a "team" in a fight... not herself... if you must, kill the aoe shield and give her the heal... at least then something will be worth the time of day and she can still support like she was "built" to do in the first place.


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GonefishingX

Senior Member

03-16-2013

I only have one issue with Karma's new kit. It doesn't make her feel like karma (the philosophical concept). The traditional Karma, underpowered or not, had a feel of channeling karma (the philosophical concept). She could take bad situations and reverse them, she worked basically as a mistake protector and an overconfidence exploiter. Her mantra abilities turned the tide of many fights.

The new abilities you have designed for her lack the feel of Karma (the philosophical concept). Each of Karma's abilities had a duality to them that allowed them to be used to benefit allies and punish enemies and be used selfishly or selflessly. When you don't have that feeling you don't have Karma, both the philosophical concept and the champion.

Q vs new Q = Karma's old Q was a cone of damage that when improved by Mantra could become an AOE heal that also damaged. This strongly reinforces her theme of being the incarnation of Karma (the Philosophical concept) by making her punish enemies for being overly aggressive and reward her and her allies for being more defensive. The new Q is a simple damage and slow that when improved my mantra slows and causes an area explosion. This seems like direct improvement instead of a drastic shift in the spells effect meant to punish enemies and reward allies. This spell also has none of Karma's selfish vs selfless nature and is simply a selfish punishment spell.

W vs new W = Karma's old W was her weakest spell and her power could have been drastically improved if it was simply buffed. This spell while weak maintained Karma's duality creating a tether to speed up allies and slow enemies again strongly reinforcing her Theme of representing Karma (the Philosophical concept). Her new W is a vast improvement over the old W but doesn't maintain the duality because it doesn't benefit Karma's allies (beyond the simple rooting) and it also cant be used against all of her foes. The main strength of the old W was that you could cast it and slow the enemy team enough to prevent a retreat or use it to expedite your own retreat. So in conclusion I like the ability when removed from Karma's theme but when I look at her theme as a whole the new W is lackluster due to it's selfish nature.

E vs new E = Karma's old E was her strongest spell due to its massive shield amount and the high AOE damage it dealt. It also strongly showcased her theme not simply because of the vast amounts of damage but because you had to choose whether to be selfish of selfless in its use. The new E is an excellent ability and strongly reinforces her theme of reversing fortune but not so much the choice of selfish vs selflessness because the spell easily shields everyone on the team including Karma. This ability is still an encouraging one.

R vs new R = Karma's heart and soul, I love how this is being handled in her new upgrade. It allows her to consistently have her mantra's be strong even if she hasn't put any levels in the base abilities. Excellent idea.

Passive vs new Passive = Karma's old passive while finicky was important to her theme by making her more powerful as she was closer to death thus allowing her to more easily do her job of representing Karma (the Philosophical concept) and reverse the fortunes of her foes. Plus it also encouraged the players to choose between selfish and selfless actions. Do you throw yourself at the enemies to selflessly take damage and improve your abilities or to do you hang back so that you can cast more abilities. Her new passive does nothing of the sort beyond allowing her to cast her mantra a bit more often the longer team fights go. Allowing her to reverse fortune but not creating a choice between selfness and selflessness.

I was really excited for a Karma redesign as she is one of my favorite champions and easily one of Leagues most unique pieces of design. Now I am simply disappointed, she may become powerful enough to warrant more play and love but at the price, it seems, of her theme. Karma's theme was the reason I played her, I could care less about whether morons on forums claim she is underpowered. Now this theme seems to be lost in a torrent of fervor for a whole new set of abilities rather than simply improving what was already there.


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Duck├Ásaurus

Member

03-16-2013

Riot, as already requested by so many others... Please bring back the ability to heal her team. It was her abililty to shield AND heal her teammates so easily which attracted me to Karma originally. Reduce Q's damage if you must, but please, I ask you allow her to heal others!


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SirSkunkWeed

Junior Member

03-16-2013

lmao so much "transformation" and "new look" ...
subtle riot...
veeeery subtle...


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SirLapse

Junior Member

03-16-2013

@ gartho
Karma's new kit is packed with CC and the ability to get your ult charges faster without 2 charge penalties. Not to mention a shield that can now speed up and affect the team. The removal of that mechanic that you relied on personally was due to the fact that her other two skills were inferior. I said this in one of my previous posts, that no other mantra bonus could beat Q2.

@ Gen
No offense, the Twitch redeux worked perfectly fine for me.Sivir still tosses my **** as Nocturne and Eve players seem happy. Also, the heal was only available during Mantra in the first place. No difference there except that you can't heal the team. Refer to my post about the skills and it'd literally cover all of that.

@ Gone
The fact that you played for the theme was nice, but the lore was what represented her theme, not necessarily the skills (although the skill names can relate). Your way of trying to relate skill use to the theme itself is ineffective, the playstyle for many of the champs in the game are based around archtypes such as Support, and since a meta is already in place, it has to change in order to combat that.

The major problem with your entire argument is that her skills should be both beneficial and hurtful. CC is always helpful for the team, and that's exactly what Q and W do. They don't have to directly affect your teammates, which your argument seems to almost avoid as a possibility.

And lastly. Do not assault people on the forums. They have a right to say that skills are situational (even TOO situational). "Underpowered" signifies that she can't keep up with the meta, and since you're not considering this, you're just one of those people holding back Karma's potential to improve by implying that she shouldn't have been changed if you had known this would happen. Remember that this is a game.


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ihaveapotion

Senior Member

03-16-2013

No need to design something completely different, i and im sure most people just want karma the way she was with only a knockback added to her q, since riot wont revert the model after so much work all we can ask for is simply to put the slow back on her w and a knockback on her current q, a healing and speedup effect when the previous are used on allies and ofcourse her old passive returned.

Its not op if you tweak the scaling so dont start with that again.