So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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KyliaL

Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
First of all thanks and I like the discussion, but back onto the topic;

Your post more or less proves my point, now I'd be stupid if I'd say 'CANT BASE CHAMPIONS OF OFF HISTORY' - it would be stupid.

But in this case, I'm not saying that, but I am going to say: 'I have to dig into history before I understand something.'

Now by no means I'm a history addict so I have no idea if Xin Zhao actually has some asian influences/is inspired by some typical asian group of fighters, there's like a 99% chance he is but what's the good part about it?

I don't have to know that at all - I see a dude carrying a huge spear and everything Xin Zhao does makes sense to me.

For Karma? You are really saying I have to dig into history to find out that Diplomats and Leaders are known to carry fans around? That's pretty much Burden of Knowledge, what you are asking me to understand is way too abstract.

First of all you are asking me to dive into history so I understand the thought-process behind Karma actually carrying those fans, which is giving me homework before I can enjoy myself, which is the definition of Burden of Knowledge, and then the second problem I'd be running into is:

'Why the hell is she awkwardly spamming them around and then all of the sudden healing herself and then all of the sudden shielding people for huge amounts?'

It all doesn't make sense because it's an awkward and weird not-central theme. Her previous theme was 'Magical Fans' - her new one is 'Spiritualist' - it's way more readable.
Understandable. I always saw Karma's fans as more of an extension of her inner self. Calm and collected. They aren't meant to do damage in my opinion. Karmas fans showed that one needed to use inner strategic knowledge so that she can benefit herself and her team. I never saw Karma's fans as healing, I saw her "will" as healing. (although in lore it states janna showed karma how to heal with her fans, i get that.) Shielding for huge amount at the swipe of a fan. Karmas fans showed how easy it was for her to summon her power. (with the wave of a fan) They were always a tool to me to show her yin and yang. Her meek outside and her inner strength. Also Karmas passive showed me strength as well, as the battle progresses her will becomes stronger. I liked Karma because there is HOMEWORK involved. I enjoy that on a character from time to time. Playing and winning feels satisfying to me when you have a very complicated character.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
Burden of Knowledge can be a double-edged sword. Denying players a chance to have game depth because of the mere potential for creating a Burden of Knowledge can be as bad or worse than that fault itself.

Learning about a character creates depth and appeals to human curiosity. It's fine to simplify content so your player base is able to understand your game, and to make things intuitive, but with a game as complicated as LoL, players are going to want to learn and have a chance to discover.
I've dealt with this argument way too many times.

There are A LOT of champion in this game that are lore dependant, Sion has his line where they state that in his lore he has 'granted some new powers with his resurrection' and that graves 'has a modified shotgun made for him' to justify that;

1. Sion has some weird abilities that have nothing to do with being that undead warrior with an axe, aka his shield being the main problem here.

2. Graves having the weird misplaced smoke screen ability that isn't coherent to the theme 'shotgun'.

The two lines that actually justify the flaws in their kits are nothing but burden of knowledge because they literally contribute nothing to Sion and Graves from a character standpoint - the sentences are just there for the sake of being there and the characters wouldn't feel less strong or less awesome if they weren't there.

It's no problem that you like to defend the underwhelming majority that does want to make homework before they can actually understand and play the game, but what you are doing really is screwing over the accesability of the game and therefore steeping up the learning curve and making it less noobfriendly, which is odd as the visual clarity, accesability and friendly controls to new players have always been League's main selling point and is the entire reason why it got so popular in the first place.

Now you shouldn't be saying here 'well seems it's allright then' - it's not, what they've done so far is great but can easily be improved on! :)

NOTE: I expected the downvotes when bringing out Sion and Graves. It's not really much of a problem, there have been countless of threads running and Riot responding to Sion's design completely being outdated and not matching his theme at all, even from a gameplay perspective and Morello himself has admitted he would've liked to do more and work more on Graves if he could.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Want to know what I'd suggest? My friend ItemsGuy has made a Karma Rework and has given her a central readable theme, a theme that all of her abilities work to.

Click here for Karma Redesign

I don't really wanna advertize the work of ItemsGuy here but now I felt it was needed.

Wanna know what's so central about the Redesign?

'KARMA, bro' - 'KARMA MOTHER****ER', 'KARMA IS A B1TCH', 'you know... Karma?', just a few sentences that should already make you understand what the Redesign is all about.

That's right, one central theme, that whatever you hit, karma hits back, you'll end up hurting yourself.

It was a tough road and not an easy task for ItemsGuy to come up with, but yet again he has amazed me to come up with an extremely fun looking kit that is readable and works to one common goal while still sticking to the entire theme of Karma, making her as much Karma as she can be, cause you know, Karma?

Sorry you can't sleep, by the way

Oh, GOD. You too. Please. Do you really think the fact that this guy made a different, and according to you, better redesign on his blog is supposed to make us feel better? I really don't see the point in all this shameless advertising. It's completely off topic.

We're making suggestions on how to improve Karma's rework, and you are criticizing us for that, telling us that Riot is doing the good thing and it's not our place to judge their work and blah, blah, blah... And then, you go like "oh but my friend did this redesign that in my opinion is much better take a look at it"? ...I mean, what?


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyliaL View Post
Understandable. I always saw Karma's fans as more of an extension of her inner self. Calm and collected. They aren't meant to do damage in my opinion. Karmas fans showed that one needed to use inner strategic knowledge so that she can benefit herself and her team. I never saw Karma's fans as healing, I saw her "will" as healing. (although in lore it states janna showed karma how to heal with her fans, i get that.) Shielding for huge amount at the swipe of a fan. Karmas fans showed how easy it was for her to summon her power. (with the wave of a fan) They were always a tool to me to show her yin and yang. Her meek outside and her inner strength. Also Karmas passive showed me strength as well, as the battle progresses her will becomes stronger. I liked Karma because there is HOMEWORK involved. I enjoy that on a character from time to time. Playing and winning feels satisfying to me when you have a very complicated character.
I hope I am not going to step on your toes here but what I think I can translate your post here to is that you like to see more depth within League because you feel a lot of characters lack that sort of strength with their character whether that is through lore or through gameplay.

I'm aware of the fact I'm literally pulling stuff out your mouth, or well I'm saying you are thinking things without the fact that you've actually said that.

I just like to share this with you: I thought that that sort of 'complexity for the sake of complexity' was the right game for me, the right character, a champion I should have to dig into before I could understand it, learn the handles and even fail with it the first few times and getting a little frustrated would only be natural.

I'm happy to tell you that I've started playing SMITE recently and can tell you that since it was the first new game I had to learn in years that I haven't been enjoying myself looking at the amounts of mechanics I have to learn for the sake of learning mechanics, it's literally anti-fun, I have to watch videos, watch guides, read about the game before I finally actually can play the game.

It's extremely frustrating and it has been a well-deserved pat on the back for ItemsGuy to tell him that a character (Sobek, some crocodile god, pretty sure Renekton has his origins there) is full of random mechanics yet that I managed to memorize one only all the time: the ability where he characteristically sinks into the water beneath him like a crocodile lurking and waiting to strike and then eventually popping out and doing damage in an area.
.
What did I really notice? The more themed abilities and mechanics that make sense and are actually relevant to the character stick in your head and make the game actually fun as they appeal to you and therefore make the combat more visceral, more engaging.

Let me copy this one more thing of a previous thread we made, someone copied this of our OP and left his own comment:

This is why I fear people make threads such as the 'I want to be excited for Quinn but I know, once her kit is released I'll be disappointed' thread. I feel the content Riot releases gets old, fast.

What happens is that players get so hungry for new content they don't care what lands on their plate, the playerbase will eat it up regardless and Riot will still think they did a good job.

It's something that feeds into itself, players are always excited about content because they are more or less bored and therefore are always happy for new champions, meaning Riot really has no incentive to step up their game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodGod22 View Post
This pretty much sums up everything I've been screaming about for 2 years now.
Note that what's in Italic are my words and I feel this is the same case with you, I think you are searching for something within League because you are more or less a bit bored, but you are asking for the wrong things so you are getting the wrong answers.

I've been there myself and have made countless of stupid forum posts where I suggested the one bad idea after the other, untill I stumbled onto ItemsGuy and realized how managed to solve everything on paper while completely living up to all of the aspects Riot has said themselves what they think what makes a good design and it all fits into place.

Counterplay for making the game dynamic, readability to help the accesability and structural integrity of the game, theming to make the champion feel as much as the champion it can be.

I really, really hope this helps.


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KyliaL

Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooberp View Post
While I understand that readability is important to your redesign, I personally think that the subtleties you're referring to are mandatory for a champion like Karma. This may be a flaw with her original concept, but her entire reason for being a character revolves around the lore of the League, and her position as a "paragon of Ionia" is only relevant if you know what Ionia is. To this end, the Ionian standard fails to improve readability, because to a new player it's just a big swirly thing through which she focuses her abilities, exactly the same as her old fans were. They may be more inclined to check out the lore to explain what exactly it is, but it doesn't provide anything visually to show what kind of character she is, and in my personal opinion it actually DETRACTS visually from her concept: Some new players may get the idea that her power does in fact originate from her standard, in the same way that Irelia's abilities draw from her mastery over her floating swords. This directly contradicts the idea that Karma's strength is internal, brought out to bear on her allies and enemies.

This is not to say that I don't like the idea of a battlecaster with a standard: it's an interesting concept but it doesn't feel like Karma to me. Old Karma to me evoked an "Enlightened One", in the sense of a Taoist monk who has achieved inner peace and total mastery of the self, and the peculiar undefinability of how she manifested that into abilities was part of the draw and mystique. I fear the standard raises more questions than do the fans. Why does she use an elaborate construct to focus her energy, rather than a staff like any generic mage? (e.g. Janna, Karthus) Is the physical standard itself important? (not really, just what it represents, but this isn't readily apparent at first glance) It appears to have been made for the "rule of cool" that also happens to be a nod to her lore, but if the issue is readability then the standard, while awesome, makes no more sense than the fans.

"Why fans?" people have said. Why not fans? Fans have precedent as an indicator of high class and sophistication, especially among the Eastern cultures from which Ionia and Karma are derived. Fans and other small handheld objects were common in feudal China and Japan as part of a general's or strategist's uniform; they don't actually do anything, (except maybe cool off the wielder) but are symbols of leadership used for issuing commands and are akin to a conductor's baton: objects through which the holder directs their will. For Karma this just happens to be more literal. The fans aren't essential to her design, but carry flavorful connotations independent of Karma's or Ionian lore, something that the standard does not.



Now let me contradict everything I've just said by saying that I like the direction you've taken with Karma. The evolution of her character makes sense, as noted elsewhere. My personal prediction for the direction of her lore is toward taking a much more active role in the leadership and representation of Ionia, as you yourself hinted, and perhaps some catastrophic event causes her to shift her resolve from merely serving Ionia to "taking up the banner", so to speak, and serving more directly as a representative of her people. This is what New Karma reflects to me, in light of her existing lore: Karma using her bond with her people as the new 'focus' for her abilities, represented and incarnated by her Ionian standard. I like this concept of a battlemage as a conduit for the will of her people, but this is a drastic departure from the role filled by Old Karma. She shifts from being a paragon of Ionian ideals who fights because it is right and just to a more literal champion OF Ionia, thoroughly representing the will of the Ionian people but losing the sense of her enlightened individuality.

My only real complaint about the Karma rework is the loss of the role filled by Old Karma. As I've said to my friends before, "I like the new champion coming out, but I hear they're deleting Karma." Old Karma's lore fit with her old kit: a bastion of strength for her team who supports them from the frontline, calmly waddli- er, wading through combat, directing its flow, strategically withholding her full power except for when necessary. Unfortunately it doesn't fit the meta for a myriad of reasons, the greatest being that a primary support sub-class mage isn't half as good in the current game meta as a primary mage with support capacity. (coincidentally, Orianna very much fits the bill of directing combat using her abilities, but she does it from a distance and isn't capable of being a protector figure)

It's been hinted that New Karma will fill a similar role of frontline battlemage, but that's not what the draw of Old Karma was. Karma's meek appearance as a matronly duchess in an evening gown who fights against and alongside fantastical champions served to draw further attention to her stoicism and superhuman calm. Karma stood idle next to the destructive monstrosities that are Cho'gath or Kog'maw, or even her greatest enemies, Warwick and Singed, and she simply fanned herself. The draw of Old Karma was this absurd poise juxtaposed with her apparent powerlessness, that untouchable enlightened essence. Visually, to look at New Karma, she appears more defiant (see the standing poses leaked) and lacking this inner peace. This could be totally understandable, if not lauded, depending on the direction her lore goes, but now there's a hole in the roster of archetypes filled in the League of Legends.



In summation: I, and apparently many other Karma fans disagree that the new design captures the holistic essence of what we liked about the old Karma, and it's frustrating to see drastic changes to her character made in the name of readability, when that is not only essentially impossible to achieve with the concept of Karma as a character, but is also not adequately filled by the new design.
I like the new champion you've designed, but please don't remove the collected, womanly, (but unsexualized) fan-toting beacon of idealism that I also liked.

At least not without giving us another one :c
bilbo , read this. This person really tears into the "readability" argument. If i could put my thoughts into words this is what I would have wrote. I totally agree with this person.


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
I've dealt with this argument way too many times.

There are A LOT of champion in this game that are lore dependant, Sion has his line where they state that in his lore he has 'granted some new powers with his resurrection' and that graves 'has a modified shotgun made for him' to justify that;

1. Sion has some weird abilities that have nothing to do with being that undead warrior with an axe, aka his shield being the main problem here.

2. Graves having the weird misplaced smoke screen ability that isn't coherent to the theme 'shotgun'.

The two lines that actually justify the flaws in their kits are nothing but burden of knowledge because they literally contribute nothing to Sion and Graves from a character standpoint - the sentences are just there for the sake of being there and the characters wouldn't feel less strong or less awesome if they weren't there.

It's no problem that you like to defend the underwhelming majority that does want to make homework before they can actually understand and play the game, but what you are doing really is screwing over the accesability of the game and therefore steeping up the learning curve and making it less noobfriendly, which is odd as the visual clarity, accesability and friendly controls to new players have always been League's main selling point and is the entire reason why it got so popular in the first place.

Now you shouldn't be saying here 'well seems it's allright then' - it's not, what they've done so far is great but can easily be improved on!
I'm going to assume you meant MINORITY not majority.

At any rate, citation. Prove to me that people do not want at least a little bit of homework for the game. It's not even like reading someone's lore to understand the reasoning behind something is that big of a deal.

It's not as though you cannot play the game how it works because of something in the lore. It's hardly screwing people out of accessibility.

If they are really that bothered with why Graves has a smokescreen, or Karma has fans they will either just accept it and move on, or care to find out why. And if you can appeal to their curiosity and make them want to find out why, then congratulations, they're interested. If they're THAT disgruntled and to confused as to why, and too lazy to look it up, then why are they wasting their time on a game with 100 characters to begin with?

Noobfriendly does not necessarily mean good. The degree of "Burden of Knowledge" removal you're talking about simplifies the game to the level of complexity of Pong.


Popularity does not necessarily equate to high quality, either.

If someone makes bad products, but they are popular, that does not make them a good product. It makes them a successful one. They are not quite equivalent. It depends upon what criteria you are looking at.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
Oh, GOD. You too. Please. Do you really think the fact that this guy made a different, and according to you, better redesign on his blog is supposed to make us feel better? I really don't see the point in all this shameless advertising. It's completely off topic.
Someone actually pointed out to me 'I don't see how on the pictures Riot provided us that she lives up to a readable spiritualist playstyle'

I agreed and have humbly admitted I'm still doubting whether they'll be able to pull that off, hence I still leave the Redesign to show an example how I feel that could be done regardless of what Riot will show us in a few days with her kit release.

Quote:
We're making suggestions on how to improve Karma's rework, and you are criticizing us for that, telling us that Riot is doing the good thing and it's not our place to judge their work and blah, blah, blah... And then, you go like "oh but my friend did this redesign that in my opinion is much better take a look at it"? ...I mean, what?
You shouldn't say things I am not saying. I'm defending Riot because they have extremely good reasoning why they are doing what they are doing, as you might have noticed, I always like to talk by Riot standards and I'd find it highly amuzing if you could actually catch my off-guard where you have proof I'd say something Riot would never do.

You ARE able and it's fine for you to judge their work, read a few pages back, ever since the start I've said that I find it completely reasonable and a normal reaction for people to be freaked out a bit and throw out certain arguments, opinions and assumptions, I haven't said you aren't allowed to judge, I just don't think you are right - hence, I share my opinion with Riot.

What do I share then exactly? That her previous theme was extremely misplaced and was weird and that her fans were deadweight on her design, her previous theme was pretty much too abstract and weird and therefore not readable, 'magical fans' that is.

On top of that, I share the opinion of getting rid of that weird misplaced theme and giving her a more 'spiritualist' theme, all being about that and that new default skin completely reflects that.

What do I not share with them? If it eventually turns out that her new spiritualist theme is going to be extremely abstract and weird in terms of gameplay and not nessecarily working to one common goal, I'm going to have be afraid I'll keep defending ItemsGuy's Redesign because for readability's sake (yet again, Riot's own standards), the Redesign might do a better job at executing how they intend Karma to be like while not sacrificing on mechanics, counterplay or readability.

Note: I personally included that Redesign link there to somebody and even included that I do not like to just advertize his work, he specifically got me out of my cage to do so.


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Note: I personally included that Redesign link there to somebody and even included that I do not like to just advertize his work, he specifically got me out of my cage to do so.
"I don't like to advertize"

buuuuuut

HERE GUYS CHECK THIS.


If you don't like to do it, don't.

It was unnecessary and provided nothing but spam.


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Ionian StarChild

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooooober View Post
I love Karma & have always felt it to be a shame that not many play her. Doing this will definitely bring her back to the fields.

My only concern is that with her makeover that her movement will change. One of the most beautiful things about her was her movement. She moved unlike any other champ. Most champs just float or run. But Karma has such an elegance & grace to her walk that really made her stand out as being different. I truly hope that her movement will stay just as graceful as it is now with the changes being made to her.
I doubt she's keeping it, because based on the images provided of her visual rework, my observation is that she sort of walks like Elise (minus Elise's heels xD) now with how she is leaning forward and how her hands are positioned while running. I think they should come up with another graceful walk for her, because her previous walk suited her old aesthetic (with the dress and the fans) and it matched it perfectly. I don't think her old walk would look that great with her makeover (swaying with those pillars behind her will look awkward and uncomfortable for karma).


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
And this is where two roads cross.

I did not only chuckle on the part where you mention 'fistfighting Irelia' - I also am afraid that you might be right, she might come off way too abstract again and not reflecting a central and readable theme again.

Readability is extremely important in a game that has over 100 characters available to play right off the bat and so is theming, as the theme of a champion is what makes a champion more awesome if the champion reflects that throughout the gameplay as much as the design can.

Now I'm not going to promise you that Riot did a fantastic job at reflecting that 'Spiritualist' throughout her gameplay, I personally admit I'm pretty scared it'll be too abstract and way too weird again, not really making a whole lot of sense (like with old karma, her heal, her shield, pretty much all of her abilities and effects were completely random and they were mechanics for the sake of mechanics, with that I mean is that you have to learn them without them making a whole lot of sense, which all has to do with readability. Brand's spells hit you? You get burned by his passive, cause you know, fire.. Darius hits you and scars you with his huge axe? You start bleeding, and start taking damage over time aswell, cause you know, bleeding. You get knocked up all of the sudden? Cause you know, a giant freakin' rock with epic force just crashed down into your entire team)

Want to know what I'd suggest? My friend ItemsGuy has made a Karma Rework and has given her a central readable theme, a theme that all of her abilities work to.

Click here for Karma Redesign

I don't really wanna advertize the work of ItemsGuy here but now I felt it was needed.

Wanna know what's so central about the Redesign?

'KARMA, bro' - 'KARMA MOTHER****ER', 'KARMA IS A B1TCH', 'you know... Karma?', just a few sentences that should already make you understand what the Redesign is all about.

That's right, one central theme, that whatever you hit, karma hits back, you'll end up hurting yourself.

It was a tough road and not an easy task for ItemsGuy to come up with, but yet again he has amazed me to come up with an extremely fun looking kit that is readable and works to one common goal while still sticking to the entire theme of Karma, making her as much Karma as she can be, cause you know, Karma?

Sorry you can't sleep, by the way
I like the link you send, its pretty amazing. And i would reply to this in depth but reading this required more energy then i had, ill reply at a later point.

And thanks! Going to attempt to sleep again