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So, about that Karma leak...

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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
KyliaL:
Thank you, I appreciate your response. Diplomats and leaders often had fans attached to what they were wearing in eastern history. (this was also noted by someone earlier in the forums.)


First of all thanks and I like the discussion, but back onto the topic;

Your post more or less proves my point, now I'd be stupid if I'd say 'CANT BASE CHAMPIONS OF OFF HISTORY' - it would be stupid.

But in this case, I'm not saying that, but I am going to say: 'I have to dig into history before I understand something.'

Now by no means I'm a history addict so I have no idea if Xin Zhao actually has some asian influences/is inspired by some typical asian group of fighters, there's like a 99% chance he is but what's the good part about it?

I don't have to know that at all - I see a dude carrying a huge spear and everything Xin Zhao does makes sense to me.

For Karma? You are really saying I have to dig into history to find out that Diplomats and Leaders are known to carry fans around? That's pretty much Burden of Knowledge, what you are asking me to understand is way too abstract.

First of all you are asking me to dive into history so I understand the thought-process behind Karma actually carrying those fans, which is giving me homework before I can enjoy myself, which is the definition of Burden of Knowledge, and then the second problem I'd be running into is:

'Why the hell is she awkwardly spamming them around and then all of the sudden healing herself and then all of the sudden shielding people for huge amounts?'

It all doesn't make sense because it's an awkward and weird not-central theme. Her previous theme was 'Magical Fans' - her new one is 'Spiritualist' - it's way more readable.


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Naxord

Junior Member

03-11-2013

Anyone else finding the amount of redundancy in the arguments of those against this change kinda funny? I mean riot people have reiterated on the fan thing like 6 times. The traditional skin 3 times. And to be fair they only mention the animation of a full dress once but it was still mentioned.

Look if you're gonna complain about something that more people are for than against; then how about an original point that has been brought up before or at least a new approach to an old point brought up. MOST IMPORTANTLY, actually read the riot posts for what they say not what your connotative interpretation is. I'm pretty sure this remake is gonna happen unless the entire(or rather significant majority of) LOL community is against it and from my view it seems as most agree with this Karma remake. Riot obviously can never appease the whole of League with one champ but that's not their job. Their job is to make an enjoyable game.

This remake seems to me as a way to open Karma up to new fans (pun XD) and that is very important I think; more so than keeping the very limited(in number not any other means) and original fans of karma aesthetically satisfied with an idea they don't even have the full grasp of. The new Karma can very well be a thousand times more fun to play and the new look may blow you away in game.

The nay-sayers to this project feel a lot more like hipsters (I liked her before she was cool) than people with concern for their champ. Especially with the clear ignoring of Riot arguments . Furthermore, of course if you make an ass out of yourself riot wont acknowledge your arguments. Such behavior is usually a sign of a person who no matter what will be unsatisfied with whatever answer they get.

Debate is not whining the loudest but making the strongest argument. If you come up with a very valid and sound reason as to why the fans are necessary or the full dress or whatever your issue is then Riot will hear you out.

I really would like meaningful posts to popup more on these forums rather than these redundant complaints with no arguments as to the validity of their point. I look forward to seeing more on this topic that is not redundant.

Although to be fair recent arguements have been headed in a desirable direction so thank you to those of you who are making this discussion progressive.


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
BestBilbo:

It all doesn't make sense because it's an awkward and weird not-central theme. Her previous theme was 'Magical Fans' - her new one is 'Spiritualist' - it's way more readable.


Cant sleep...

And not to be weird or anything, but what make her look more like a spiritualist? On the splash i get it but the ingame stuff for me she looks like a fistfighting Irelia. I cant see the iron will the spiritualist part. And i just wanna see it so please someone tell me what im missing?


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
HarryOrunitia:
I'm sorry, but you're giving me the exact same kind of replies we've been getting from Riot employees already. "They didn't go with the traditional skin as the default one because the new one is better". It's better HOW? How does the new purple mantle thing scream "spiritualist!!!" any louder or any better than the yin/yang based design in the traditional skin? Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't see it, but I don't see it.


Great! I haven't been actually reading all of the red posts here in this thread and haven't really taken a real good look at the first riot posts either, but I just took a look at the picture and I was already pretty convinced I was aware of what Riot was trying to do here, with Karma.

See what happend is that with the removal of her fans her theme changed, the default skin is supposed to represent the champion's theme as much as it can, it has to represent the purest of the champion.

Karma's new theme is arguably 'spiritualist', the new default skin has more characteristic elements present on her visual design and delivers that message better than a fully-worn yin-yang chick in a battle dress.

Quote:
No? It's again a traditional skin vs new default issue. I wasn't talking about the rework as a whole, and I don't know how you got that. I was simply pointing out that the traditional skin is a lot more recognizable as the old Karma, while also fixing lots of the issues you guys seemed to have (it still gets rid of the fans you deem unreadable as weapons or the long dress you say isn't "spiritual" enough).


Fans are in no way characteristic to spiritualists or Hinduism in general, it isn't just 'not spiritual enough', it's not spiritual at all.

Also, I'm not telling you that the traditional skin isn't less recognizable as the old Karma, heck, the entire point of that skin was to be a tribute to the old Karma.

But that's the point, Karma is no longer the old Karma, hence the default skin does a better job at representing what Karma was always intended to be than her default.

Quote:
Making that the default skin really seems like a viable solution that would make everybody happy and avoid some confusion for the more casual players and the people who don't really follow what goes on "behind the scenes". Ames himself said it was actually considered a few times, but he never explained why it was eventually decided against it, and I would like to know.


She's a spiritualist, the new default captures the very theme and essence of that way better than her new default skin.

Quote:
EDIT: I don't usually care about downvotes, especially in this thread, but everyone who's downvoting this post supposedly has a valid explanation or an answer to the question I'm asking here. Go ahead, then. Make a post and give me an answer.


Aye. Done.


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Nesher

Recruiter

03-11-2013

I love Karma & have always felt it to be a shame that not many play her. Doing this will definitely bring her back to the fields.

My only concern is that with her makeover that her movement will change. One of the most beautiful things about her was her movement. She moved unlike any other champ. Most champs just float or run. But Karma has such an elegance & grace to her walk that really made her stand out as being different. I truly hope that her movement will stay just as graceful as it is now with the changes being made to her.


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Miko

Member

03-11-2013

Now can you do similar thing with Twisted Fortune and Poppy? Literally, people do not play those champions because they are so lame.


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
BestBilbo:
First of all thanks and I like the discussion, but back onto the topic;

Your post more or less proves my point, now I'd be stupid if I'd say 'CANT BASE CHAMPIONS OF OFF HISTORY' - it would be stupid.

But in this case, I'm not saying that, but I am going to say: 'I have to dig into history before I understand something.'

Now by no means I'm a history addict so I have no idea if Xin Zhao actually has some asian influences/is inspired by some typical asian group of fighters, there's like a 99% chance he is but what's the good part about it?

I don't have to know that at all - I see a dude carrying a huge spear and everything Xin Zhao does makes sense to me.

For Karma? You are really saying I have to dig into history to find out that Diplomats and Leaders are known to carry fans around? That's pretty much Burden of Knowledge, what you are asking me to understand is way too abstract.

First of all you are asking me to dive into history so I understand the thought-process behind Karma actually carrying those fans, which is giving me homework before I can enjoy myself, which is the definition of Burden of Knowledge, and then the second problem I'd be running into is:

'Why the hell is she awkwardly spamming them around and then all of the sudden healing herself and then all of the sudden shielding people for huge amounts?'

It all doesn't make sense because it's an awkward and weird not-central theme. Her previous theme was 'Magical Fans' - her new one is 'Spiritualist' - it's way more readable.


Burden of Knowledge can be a double-edged sword. Denying players a chance to have game depth because of the mere potential for creating a Burden of Knowledge can be as bad or worse than that fault itself.

Learning about a character creates depth and appeals to human curiosity. It's fine to simplify content so your player base is able to understand your game, and to make things intuitive, but with a game as complicated as LoL, players are going to want to learn and have a chance to discover.


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Adige

Junior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
BestBilbo:
First of all thanks and I like the discussion, but back onto the topic;

Your post more or less proves my point, now I'd be stupid if I'd say 'CANT BASE CHAMPIONS OF OFF HISTORY' - it would be stupid.

But in this case, I'm not saying that, but I am going to say: 'I have to dig into history before I understand something.'

Now by no means I'm a history addict so I have no idea if Xin Zhao actually has some asian influences/is inspired by some typical asian group of fighters, there's like a 99% chance he is but what's the good part about it?

I don't have to know that at all - I see a dude carrying a huge spear and everything Xin Zhao does makes sense to me.

For Karma? You are really saying I have to dig into history to find out that Diplomats and Leaders are known to carry fans around? That's pretty much Burden of Knowledge, what you are asking me to understand is way too abstract.

First of all you are asking me to dive into history so I understand the thought-process behind Karma actually carrying those fans, which is giving me homework before I can enjoy myself, which is the definition of Burden of Knowledge, and then the second problem I'd be running into is:

'Why the hell is she awkwardly spamming them around and then all of the sudden healing herself and then all of the sudden shielding people for huge amounts?'

It all doesn't make sense because it's an awkward and weird not-central theme. Her previous theme was 'Magical Fans' - her new one is 'Spiritualist' - it's way more readable.


It's a reference, and people who know the references will get it and appreciate it, but they aren't central to understanding Karma. Her title of Enlightened one is a reference to the Buddah. Her dress and kit are references to Taoism and duality. Her fans are references to Taoist magic, duality, and her status in her backstory.

Champions have jokes that reference many things in popular culture that many people wouldn't get (Lux alone references at least three different things), but are enjoyable to those that do while taking nothing away from those that don't.

Personally, I don't like this idea that the fans need to be included in everything that she does. Nidalee's spear anyone? She uses it for one spell, then she can heal people, set up traps, and turn into a cat. What do those have to do with her spear? I know, let's get rid of it! :/

Edit: I'm also not really sure I follow with her new theme being spiritualist like you're suggesting. I can kind of see it because of familiarity with related tropes (Spiritual is Purple (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SupernaturalIsPurple) and Power Glows (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerGlows)), but we already have these tropes in spades with other champions in the League who are also associated with purple and glowy bits. So now we get another one that trades off Lady of War (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LadyOfWar) and Silk Hiding Steel (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SilkHidingSteel) for tropes that are already fairly common in the same setting. It's just kind of depressing. :/

Sorry for the long aside about tropes. I can get lost there for hours.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
BestBilbo:
First of all thanks and I like the discussion, but back onto the topic;

Your post more or less proves my point, now I'd be stupid if I'd say 'CANT BASE CHAMPIONS OF OFF HISTORY' - it would be stupid.

But in this case, I'm not saying that, but I am going to say: 'I have to dig into history before I understand something.'

Now by no means I'm a history addict so I have no idea if Xin Zhao actually has some asian influences/is inspired by some typical asian group of fighters, there's like a 99% chance he is but what's the good part about it?

I don't have to know that at all - I see a dude carrying a huge spear and everything Xin Zhao does makes sense to me.

For Karma? You are really saying I have to dig into history to find out that Diplomats and Leaders are known to carry fans around? That's pretty much Burden of Knowledge, what you are asking me to understand is way too abstract.

First of all you are asking me to dive into history so I understand the thought-process behind Karma actually carrying those fans, which is giving me homework before I can enjoy myself, which is the definition of Burden of Knowledge, and then the second problem I'd be running into is:

'Why the hell is she awkwardly spamming them around and then all of the sudden healing herself and then all of the sudden shielding people for huge amounts?'

It all doesn't make sense because it's an awkward and weird not-central theme. Her previous theme was 'Magical Fans' - her new one is 'Spiritualist' - it's way more readable.


Yes, who isn't familiar with the feeling of "OH MY GAWD THIS IS SO STUPID I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO GO RESEARCH ON THIS CHAMPION I CAN'T KEEP PLAYING UNTIL I UNDERSTAND WHY SHE HAS FANS!!!!! OH MY GOD WHAT IS THIS AAAH" when playing Karma? /sarcasm

No but seriously, I could say the same things about other champions in the League, like Jax. He fights with a lamppost, and if everyone felt the way you just described, they would absolutely have to go read his lore before he becomes an enjoyable champion to play. And why does swirling his lamppost around let him dodge attacks?

But again, you're just focusing on the fans, even going as far as saying that her whole theme was "magical fans". I disagree, the fans were something we loved, but most people agree that her main theme was "yin/yang inspired spiritualist figure" or "classy politician lady". And you still haven't answered how exactly her new design helps convey any of those themes better, especially that of spiritualism. Aren't spiritualists calm and collected most of the time? Then why does the new Karma look like a hand-to-hand fighter who seems to taunt enemies in the battlefield with weird fighting poses? How does her new purple attire fit the figure of a spiritualist any better? Once you take away the fans, what exactly gets in the way of keeping Karma BOTH a classy politician and an asian themed spiritualist?

I start to understand why they had to remove the fans (no, I still don't agree with that decision but that's beside the point), but that explanation still doesn't tell us why they couldn't keep any of her other elements, even the most basic harmless ones like her color scheme or her hairdo or her age.

EDIT: Ah, sorry, you replied to my other post as I was typing this. But most of what I said here still stands.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Healurownbum:
Cant sleep...

And not to be weird or anything, but what make her look more like a spiritualist? On the splash i get it but the ingame stuff for me she looks like a fistfighting Irelia. I cant see the iron will the spiritualist part. And i just wanna see it so please someone tell me what im missing?


And this is where two roads cross.

I did not only chuckle on the part where you mention 'fistfighting Irelia' - I also am afraid that you might be right, she might come off way too abstract again and not reflecting a central and readable theme again.

Readability is extremely important in a game that has over 100 characters available to play right off the bat and so is theming, as the theme of a champion is what makes a champion more awesome if the champion reflects that throughout the gameplay as much as the design can.

Now I'm not going to promise you that Riot did a fantastic job at reflecting that 'Spiritualist' throughout her gameplay, I personally admit I'm pretty scared it'll be too abstract and way too weird again, not really making a whole lot of sense (like with old karma, her heal, her shield, pretty much all of her abilities and effects were completely random and they were mechanics for the sake of mechanics, with that I mean is that you have to learn them without them making a whole lot of sense, which all has to do with readability. Brand's spells hit you? You get burned by his passive, cause you know, fire.. Darius hits you and scars you with his huge axe? You start bleeding, and start taking damage over time aswell, cause you know, bleeding. You get knocked up all of the sudden? Cause you know, a giant freakin' rock with epic force just crashed down into your entire team)

Want to know what I'd suggest? My friend ItemsGuy has made a Karma Rework and has given her a central readable theme, a theme that all of her abilities work to.

Click here for Karma Redesign (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/03/champion-redesign-karma-enlightened-one.html)

I don't really wanna advertize the work of ItemsGuy here but now I felt it was needed.

Wanna know what's so central about the Redesign?

'KARMA, bro' - 'KARMA MOTHER****ER', 'KARMA IS A B1TCH', 'you know... Karma?', just a few sentences that should already make you understand what the Redesign is all about.

That's right, one central theme, that whatever you hit, karma hits back, you'll end up hurting yourself.

It was a tough road and not an easy task for ItemsGuy to come up with, but yet again he has amazed me to come up with an extremely fun looking kit that is readable and works to one common goal while still sticking to the entire theme of Karma, making her as much Karma as she can be, cause you know, Karma?

Sorry you can't sleep, by the way