So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
That's the problem right there, people liked the actual 'fans' as weapons, wich screws over her theme and readability.

So no, wasn't possible to keep all of the elements Karma currently has.
You're only focusing on the fans, but as we said countless times in this thread already, that wasn't the only element we liked, and it definitely wasn't the only element that got scrapped.

Her dress, her lore, her attitude, her personality, her animations, her posture and her color scheme, all those things got scrapped.

Also, the only thing left that could remind us of her is the traditional skin, but it's being used as a skin rather than her new default look. That seems pointless to me and no one explained the thought process behind that decision.


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreetingsGoodbye View Post
So having to make a decision is bad? I respectfully (sincerely) disagree.
I get that but i have the feeling i get to make that decision with mantra how it currently is as well. Either save it up for two heals or two shield nukes. Or a shield and spirit bond.
With the skills u linked u either get dmg or a shield dmg or a heal. I love the feeling i have more control then just that. Im sorry tho im knackered and probably explaining my point of view horribly.

*Edit and sorry if i insulted you. That was not at all what i ment to do.


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
^

If that was the only feedback you could possibly give him on his rework, then I wouldn't even bother GreetingsGoodbye, from the looks of it your rework has plenty of decisionmaking which is absolutely great, choosing between forms and switching to get to another skillset that's better depending on the situation is great.

I'm not saying your rework is good, I'm saying that state of mind and that implementation/that being present on your rework is not a flaw at all, in fact it's good, heck I back you up and tell you that everyone who's making a claim for that to be a flaw; feel free to ignore.

I'd like to give you some feedback if you'd appreciate it, just gimme a reply over here if you'd like to.
I gave My opinion thats all. I was saying how it came over for me. Atleast i had to balls to say something and not just downvote him, and leaving him hanging. I just gave my look on it. Ur coming over rather harsh mate.


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WhiteArchon

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Junior Member

03-11-2013

tons of players are buying karma right now only cause ur giving a skin, u should give the skin to the old karma players


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Oh, there's no doubt that all of my redesigns can be improved! I don't work with the mindset that they are the BEST solutions, but I do compare them to their original iterations and can point out where and how and why they excel at fulfilling Riot's criteria, where their original iterations have failed. I think the sense of "arrogance" people are getting from me comes from the matter-of-fact way I approach and state things--which, in turn, comes from a very defined and meticulous method of problem solving. I identify problems ("problems" being a contrast between iteration and criteria, such as an inherent lack of counterplay or a lack of thematic coherency), I state why those problems must be solved, I solve them (in theory), I step back, and I try to find any way in which the problem must be solved. No readable counterplay? Back to the drawing board. Anti-patterns? Back to the drawing board. Inherently broken or counterintuitive mechanics? Back to the drawing board.

Also, one of the things I strive to obtain is a group of experienced peers to tear my work to shreds and then take every shred and explain it to me, which is why I have set aside all of my other game design plans and am fighting for an internship at Riot! There are certainly champions that gave me a lot of trouble that I'm still dissatisfied with (hello, Fiddlesticks!)--in fact, I'd say that this makes up about half of the redesigns. I want to maintain all the content I can, but sadly, I don't have all the answers! I don't even have the majority, I only know which direction to go to look for them.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I come off as arrogant at times--I tend to not take critique into account when the critic only claims that problems exist (as dark blade yago said earlier, ITEMSGUY YOUR DESIGNS ARE BAD!!!) but doesn't point out said problems and point out why they are problems. It might also come from the stash of Rioter posts that back up just about every claim and decision I make, so that might butter my bread a bit. ; )

But on that note, what are your critiques on Heim and Fidds? I'd like to fix them right away. : )
Or perhaps people get the sense of arrogance because you have the gall to misquote them, ignore an entire lengthy response because of a short justified criticism of you deciding to rudely and unprofessionally advertise your work on an unrelated thread, and because you frequently use wording that has a connotation placing you as a superior designer than those at Riot, who possess the world's most played computer game.

Furthermore, rather than inquire as to why one feels that your designs have faults when someone asserts they do, you would rather write them off (and in my case misquote me and ignore the rest of the response) because they don't immediately explain themselves. Perhaps they don't want to focus on criticizing your pretentious often faulted redesigns because, like in this thread, it isn't the task at hand or on topic? Especially not when you're apt to ignore responses. I have a feeling you'll do it here as well.


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Iridos

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
You're only focusing on the fans, but as we said countless times in this thread already, that wasn't the only element we liked, and it definitely wasn't the only element that got scrapped.

Her dress, her lore, her attitude, her personality, her animations, her posture and her color scheme, all those things got scrapped.

Also, the only thing left that could remind us of her is the traditional skin, but it's being used as a skin rather than her new default look. That seems pointless to me and no one explained the thought process behind that decision.
That, and the skin isn't even a very good representation of the things we liked about the old look. Frankly, I'd be happier if that skin was changed to more accurately represent the things that are great about Karma's current visual aesthetic... I know better than to expect much more. (Fans and a long dress would go a huge distance here.)

By the way, the reason the same small group of people keeps coming back to this thread is because we care about this issue. So no, we're not going to just shut up and go away. And no, Riot shouldn't just ignore our concerns because there aren't a ton of us. Quite aside from theoretical objections to ochlocracy, Riot has an opportunity here to demonstrate that they do care about fans who feel strongly about issues even if they're a smaller group. That means trying to actually work with Karma's fans, not just cracking jokes about them.


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GreetingsGoodbye

Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Healurownbum View Post
*Edit and sorry if i insulted you. That was not at all what i ment to do.

No, I didn't get that at all, bro. All good.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
You're only focusing on the fans, but as we said countless times in this thread already, that wasn't the only element we liked, and it definitely wasn't the only element that got scrapped.

Her dress, her lore, her attitude, her personality, her animations, her posture and her color scheme, all those things got scrapped.

Also, the only thing left that could remind us of her is the traditional skin, but it's being used as a skin rather than her new default look. That seems pointless to me and no one explained the thought process behind that decision.
The removal of the fans kinda was the snowball that started rolling to make Karma a whole other character than she was.

Like I have explained in an earlier post, the removal of the fans makes more room for Karma as the spiritual lady, more focused and themed around being that spiritual lady and hinduism, being that dropping that fully-covering-her-body-dress was an easy decision, there's your thought process and I think I'm being pretty accurate here.

The removal of the fans paved a way for a whole other type of Karma, the type of Karma that is entirely about being that spiritualist, snowballing into a change of appearance, lore and personality.

You could see this rework as 'how Karma was always supposed to be like', it's probably just that they hit the wrong snare back when they originally designed her.

Riot has learned a lot of things and stuff like this is all an improvement, hopefully she'll reflect the same readable and central theme through-out gameplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Healurownbum View Post
I gave My opinion thats all. I was saying how it came over for me. Atleast i had to balls to say something and not just downvote him, and leaving him hanging. I just gave my look on it. Ur coming over rather harsh mate.
My bad, please note I do not intent to sound harsh, my tone is just very bland.

On a more serious note, it's perfectly fine and even good to have kits that have built-in decision making opportunities. You know, it's what makes a kit dynamic. Should I do A or should I do B right now? Options man, options!


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
My bad, please note I do not intent to sound harsh, my tone is just very bland.
All good might just be my inner dramaqueen going full on!

*Edit: My look on the dress change... Dont kill me i know its been spoken of loads, but still just wanna share it.

Current dress with a split at the front from bottom till above the knee's. And loose the sleaves and the thing around the neck opening up the top alot more. Not a deep cleavage but some what straps over the shoulders. Thats how i saw the change. And im now soo going to bed im exhausted!

Sleep well or have a great day which ever timezone you are in.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
The removal of the fans kinda was the snowball that started rolling to make Karma a whole other character than she was.

Like I have explained in an earlier post, the removal of the fans makes more room for Karma as the spiritual lady, more focused and themed around being that spiritual lady and hinduism, being that dropping that fully-covering-her-body-dress was an easy decision, there's your thought process and I think I'm being pretty accurate here.

The removal of the fans paved a way for a whole other type of Karma, the type of Karma that is entirely about being that spiritualist, snowballing into a change of appearance, lore and personality.
I don't think you understand my question. Why isn't the traditional skin her default look? I wasn't asking the thought process behind dropping the full body dress. Especially when even in the traditional skin it isn't a full body dress anymore. But at least it has the same color scheme, it is still kind of recognizable. And hey, it's beautiful. Everybody seems to agree on that.

If a player stopped playing like one year ago, and decided to come back to this game say, next year, if he saw Karma's traditional skin as the default look he would think "oh, I think I remember who she is! She got a visual rework I guess". The reaction to the new default look would probably be more like "I don't remember this champion being in the game when I stopped playing" instead. How is that not an issue? It's understandable that Riot wants to relaunch and remake a few champions but keeping at least a few very basic recognizable traits (such as the color scheme) should be an obvious rule.