So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

T33moHat

Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
But seems your set on being a pain
It's "you're" not "your".


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Terra Enigma

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Still Info demanded about Guinsoo


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cheke

Member

03-11-2013

Even when I do undertand why the fans are gone, I think fans on Sakura Karma fit pretty well with the skin, is there a chance we can see emotes with fans on this skin? (only as aesthetics)

I feel they can make sense with the skin as those on Jade Fang Cassiopeia =)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hollywood Cool

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Thanks - this is informative.

Because of the rig and how things "work" (shorthand), the fans won't be returning here, but I think that these might have been more important to some die-hard Karma fans than we originally thought.

As our first full overhaul, we want to make sure if there are additional considerations that we take them into account when approaching these. While our decisions can quite possibly at least put off a few players with this kind of stuff, it is food for thought next time.
Well you could make it so one attack she draws fans and uses them. Maybe you're keeping her Q?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

samwiii

Junior Member

03-11-2013

Why don't they make the new "Karma" a new champ instead of deleting the previous interesting and classy one (Because they are both completely different)?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AL Penguin

Senior Member

03-11-2013

I always thought the theme of ionia is about balance... you got three ninjas who check the balance, a warrior who finds peace through combat, a monk who fights, an archer who lost the balance and because of that, is corrupted, an assassin-villain who despises balance, and finally a leader who balances battle with diplomacy that culminated the Ionia vs Noxus battle that paved her nation to victory (3 years ago).

That's why she's the epitomy of ionia, BECAUSE she is the ultimate symbol of balance. Her gameplay involves balancing offence and defence; tankiness and damage (quite complicated, really). her visuals are overly symmetric, her lore is all about balancing the violence of the battlefield and the peacefulness of negotiation and her inner balance between control and strength.

This is an affirmation of a post that stated that Karma is more about balance than inner strength. I agree.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Cool View Post
Well you could make it so one attack she draws fans and uses them. Maybe you're keeping her Q?
I see too many people in this thread that are missing the point.

Guys, this is exactly what happens when Riot steps up their game. Karma was an outdated and poorly designed champion, both visually and mechanically (yes, mechanically, she was missing a central theme and none of her abilities worked to one common goal, she was basically a supportive mage slapped onto her design, tell me, what was her theme? 'spamming fans' isn't a readable and logical one, especially considering the weird heal and shield mechanic that she has, it doesn't make sense and isn't characteristic to Karma as a character in any way)

Now first of all, wich is entirely subjective here: I love what they have done to her visually.

Now to the fact parts: The fans a lot of players are crying about here in this thread were deadweight on Karma's design, well to be honest they weren't even deadweight, they were holding her back in terms of how strong she could deliver herself as a mechanically strong character.

A champion has to be readable and has to feel strong, fans are not the correct tools to make that happen.

It was essential for them to drop the fans, kit and abilities-wise. They aren't going to add them or they'd screw over her readability, which means that they'd make Karma work less logical, yet things feeling natural is essential in a game that has over 100 characters, especially for new players.

The fans had to leave, so they left them out. That's about it, nothing more, nothing less.


---------------------------


EDIT: To clarify, the reason they had to drop the fans was because there isn't a whole lot you can do with them and still make sense, you have kits that are entirely designed around a certain weapon, Tristana's cannon, OIaf's Axes, Darius huge axe, they are all very straightforward and easy material to work with. Now when you are making a character that has a spiritual flair with it, it'll be harder to add a specific weapon on to that and still sell a certain central concept.

Give a bad@ss some axes and you can still sell the theme of 'Berserker', which Olaf totally is.

Give a bad@ss in armor a huge axe and you still sell the theme of 'Warrior of Noxus', or well 'Hand of Noxus'

Note that these two characters do everything with their weapons. Except for Olaf's ult as that is entirely based on his 'Berserker' theme, is that a problem? Not at all, it ties all of his abilities together and unifies all of it, the ultimate is a real major selling point.

Now talking Karma, how are you going to add fans to a character that also has a spiritual flair to her? The first problem you are already running into is that fans aren't nessecarily characteristic to her in the first place, while concerning Olaf and Darius it's no surprise the berserker is running around with his axes and it's no surprise a warrior runs around with a huge giant axe.

The second problem: if you add the fans, that means less spiritual stuff. It's like giving Brand a sword, if you are adding a sword to his design, it means he'll be less spamming around his fire like a fire mage, because you also got to take the sword present on his design into account, same goes for karma, first of all adding the fans wasn't characteristic or good to her in anyway and then secondly, it meant Karma was going to be less Karma, less of a spiritual lady she is.

Want a champion entirely about fans? No problem, but they have to be one central theme and not blur the other one (in this case the spiritual theme) down, does anyone know Kyoshi warriors from Avatar? Something like that.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AL Penguin View Post
I always thought the theme of ionia is about balance... you got three ninjas who check the balance, a warrior who finds peace through combat, a monk who fights, an archer who lost the balance and because of that, is corrupted, an assassin-villain who despises balance, and finally a leader who balances battle with diplomacy that culminated the Ionia vs Noxus battle that paved her nation to victory (3 years ago).

That's why she's the epitomy of ionia, BECAUSE she is the ultimate symbol of balance. Her gameplay involves balancing offence and defence; tankiness and damage (quite complicated, really). her visuals are overly symmetric, her lore is all about balancing the violence of the battlefield and the peacefulness of negotiation and her inner balance between control and strength.

This is an affirmation of a post that stated that Karma is more about balance than inner strength. I agree.
I think I might actually save this, this is pretty well-put!

The issue here, it seems to be, is that the previous iteration of Karma does not convey what Riot wanted to convey with her--it wasn't a proper visual vessel for the Karma they wanted people to play, based around this essence of "Ionian power," of that rich sense of balance. They want to convey that theme of balance (that permeates everything about Ionia through its own living "symbol"--Karma) just as Garen and Jarvan embody the martial gung-ho of Demacia, how Darius embodies the uncompromising power of Noxus, and so on, and Karma's previous iteration just didn't cut it in conveying that. To quote a Rioter:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Monkey View Post
Why did you change Karma’s look and costume?

Karma’s original look had a few shortcomings that we’d like to address for her relaunch. For starters, her aesthetic was hard to read and didn’t really convey much about her character. Her fans, dress and posture didn’t reflect her playstyle or storyline. There was a lot we could change about Karma to bring a more cohesive vision to the character

First, we made sure that Karma’s new look showed off her status as a paragon of Ionia while appearing unique on the battlefield. Her floating fans weren’t cutting it as magical conduits, so we replaced them with a powerful manifestation of her Ionian will. Now, Karma carries the draconic symbol of Ionia with her at all times. We also decked her out in Ionian garb to emphasize her allegiance. We also crafted a new set of animations that emphasized her status as a champion of Ionia rather than a matronly diplomat.

This new approach to Karma transforms her into a badass conduit of inner strength that brings Ionia’s strength to every battlefield.
In short? What people were missing about Karma, wasn't very "Karma" at all--the fans, the dress, and the posture didn't convey what Riot wanted to convey with her. The fact that this unresolved iteration existed in the past is no excuse to not make every change necessary to bring more cohesion to her as a champion.

This is the same argument against people that are attached to the "mage" aspects of Sion, how they say he "wouldn't be Sion" without them. But the reality is the contrary! It's those aspects that are keeping Sion from being as "Sion" as he can be. They're what's keeping him from being the burly, undead warrior he was designed to be, so they have to go.

Does that mean that there can never be a champion that scratches that "matronly diplomat with fans" itch? Hell no! In fact, a fair amount of my original work stems from a desire to preserve things that players love, and give them a fitting home. But the fact of the matter stands that what the vocal minority in this thread love about Karma, and what Karma was intended to be, are two different things. Let's hope that we do get that serving of elegance in a future champion--where it's part of a unified whole, empowered by every other component of the champion (kit, lore, etc.), and empowering those other components in turn! This, in the end, would create a better game than one where the design team tries to force a sub-optimal design decision out of pure sentiment.

(@RiotAmes- I'll try to be a bit more brief with my posts from now on! Also t-thanks for noticing my work, senpai. ;_; )

EDIT: (Also, for those interested, do know that I am currently brainstorming for a way to preserve the attitude and weapon-of-choice for old Karma with an original champion! Since you guys seem to favor the flowy grace of old Karma to the sort of acrobatics of the other fan-wielding characters mentioned in this thread, I think I'll be drawing some inspiration from peacocks--to create a champion whose power in-game seems almost effortless, and whose calm demeanor undermines even the greatest offensive efforts of her enemies. Matronly diplomat indeed! If you guys have any other sources of inspiration you'd like to throw at me--please do so!)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Shentok

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Any chance the current designer for the new Karma gets fired so we can get a real rework that will make real Karma fans happy?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by VexTheHex View Post
I have been following this thread some, and it's not a huge amount of people that are coming in upset in this thread. I think it's a group of 12ish posters (though a good chunk of the posts are by about 4-6 people) who are keeping the train moving. I saw a couple of threads last night/today about how Karma's rework has destroyed her, and they were downvoted with people disagreeing with the OP's complaints right off the bat.

And it's always been that people are much more likely to come to the forums and threads to voice their anger than their satisfaction.

Edit- And I also have noticed the tendency for even someone saying something along the line of "Omg, I'm excited!" and "She looks beautiful, this was an awesome change!" to get a couple downvotes. This thread is mostly watched by the small group that dislike the Karma changes. Those who are happy, post and leave.
Yes, at this point it is a small group of people that keep carrying this conversation. It doesn't mean and it isn't fair to assume that they are the only ones who are disappointed with Karma's rework though. There may be some other Karma fans who haven't even heard of this, people who play on other servers, people who are waiting for her release before expressing their opinions, people who don't think they have anything constructive to add, etc.
There's also a very similar amount of people who keep coming back to this thread every day just to tell us to "shut up about it". I don't get it. Why do they care?

Yes, it's true there are still some new people coming in here to express their excitement and then leave. There are also people who express their disappointment and leave, although maybe fewer. And that's no surprise, we know we are the minority.

It's obvious the majority of people like the rework, but the point isn't really about that. The point is, does Riot care about all their players enough that they would try to do something to still please the majority without leaving the minority, no matter how small, completely behind? Would they be willing to put some more effort into it and add like a fan recall animation or a line in her VO, or maybe make her traditional skin her new default? (yes, this is the most drastic suggestion but I'm pretty sure it would also be the one to require the least work on their part, and the most pleasing for us, not to mention that the traditional skin got very good feedback even from the people who liked the new look).

I'm pretty sure if they did a poll like "Should Karma keep her fans in her recall animation?" or "Should Karma's traditional skin be her default one?" it wouldn't be just the ten, or twelve or whatever of us who are still following this thread to vote "yes". And hey, maybe we'd still lose, but I'm sure it wouldn't be as small of a group anymore.
Sadly they seem to have made it pretty clear that they have no intention to do anything like a poll. After all, they didn't do anything of the sort DURING the rework process, why would they do it after?

One last thing: not every new thread about Karma gets downvoted to oblivion. The one about her fans, encouraging serious discussion, actually had a few upvotes.