So, about that Karma leak...

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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-07-2013

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Originally Posted by IUDream View Post
But I liked the whole concept of Enlightened=cool and calm.
The only ones who didn't like it and/or get it seem to be the ones at Riot, and the people who've never even played Karma but still whined about her. You know, the ones who had to post "who's karma lolol" in every thread.


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Risemix

Senior Member

03-07-2013

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Originally Posted by KínseySíx View Post
I agree that she isn't especially 'sexed up' in this rework, but certainly, and undeniably more sexualised than the old Karma.

Karma always had a somewhat older, matronly vibe. She came across as cool, calm, collected and classy. The new splash art certainly ain't in the realms of M.F., Ahri, Janna, Zrya or Elise trashiness, but it still looks more like something Angelina Jolie would wear to the oscars than something a diplomat would wear.

I'm reserving judgement 'till we see the whole package, but so far she looks to have been turned into yet another barbie doll in a costume.
This is a reasonable arugment (I'm not going to bother to respond to complaints about her cup size as complaints about that are rather pointless; it's a fantasy game and artistic direction and game conveyance take precedence over anything else, and sorry but big boobs help convey gender in this game).

The dress does have a bit of an "Oscar dress" vibe, now that you mention it, but it also looks great with Karma's new theme and also gives me a solid sense of where she's from and what she's about. I still think she seems older, wiser, cool, collected, and yes, classy. I don't get the "barbie doll" vibe at all.

If I may say so: I respect your point of view but I think people that are seeing what you are seeing are really looking hard for it. Everyone is just waiting to pounce on Riot for putting out a sexy chick champion, and with many Karma fans being disappointed, I think that effect is being magnified a bit.

I am glad you're willing to wait and see the package before getting angry, because I think it's much less severe than you think.


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IUDream

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
The only ones who didn't like it and/or get it seem to be the ones at Riot, and the people who've never even played Karma but still whined about her. You know, the ones who had to post "who's karma lolol" in every thread.
Totally kills the character.
I mean I guess I like their improvement on matching characters with the lore, but this...


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Shingo

Senior Member

03-07-2013

I hope to god they don't give her some empowered / ethereal / echoy voice filter to go with her new sorceress of day glow personality..


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-07-2013

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Originally Posted by IUDream View Post
Totally kills the character.
I mean I guess I like their improvement on matching characters with the lore, but this...
Exactly as you said, it kills the character. I feel like there's no "character" left in Karma whatsoever. No person, personality, identity, style. They just turned her into an empty symbol for Ionia, probably because they realized that part of the lore really lacked something. It angers me that Karma and her fans (pun intended) had to pay the price for this, while they could've just released a new champion for that purpose, and keep the Karma rework true to her roots.


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SolusEmsu

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Senior Member

03-07-2013

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Thanks - this is informative.

Because of the rig and how things "work" (shorthand), the fans won't be returning here, but I think that these might have been more important to some die-hard Karma fans than we originally thought.

As our first full overhaul, we want to make sure if there are additional considerations that we take them into account when approaching these. While our decisions can quite possibly at least put off a few players with this kind of stuff, it is food for thought next time.
It may not be a satisfactory total answer, but I would like to at least put this thought out there.

For the Traditional Karma skin, would you be okay if they added a fan (or two), folded and attached to a belt or something? To show that she still has them, but not used in any of her animations anymore (aside walking of course), that she has moved beyond them. Maybe a single line referencing that she does not need them any more?

Like an attack command line, "I no longer need my catalytic foci to blast you!" Or something.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Risemix View Post
This is a reasonable arugment (I'm not going to bother to respond to complaints about her cup size as complaints about that are rather pointless; it's a fantasy game and artistic direction and game conveyance take precedence over anything else, and sorry but big boobs help convey gender in this game).

The dress does have a bit of an "Oscar dress" vibe, now that you mention it, but it also looks great with Karma's new theme and also gives me a solid sense of where she's from and what she's about. I still think she seems older, wiser, cool, collected, and yes, classy. I don't get the "barbie doll" vibe at all.

If I may say so: I respect your point of view but I think people that are seeing what you are seeing are really looking hard for it. Everyone is just waiting to pounce on Riot for putting out a sexy chick champion, and with many Karma fans being disappointed, I think that effect is being magnified a bit.

I am glad you're willing to wait and see the package before getting angry, because I think it's much less severe than you think.
Big boobs might help conveying gender in this game, but the point is that they shouldn't. Gender is also about personality, posture, grace... Do you think anyone would've had trouble telling Karma was a female before the rework? If anything, her new model, even with the dress, the boobs and everything, looks A LOT less feminine to me. Ironic.


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StarkRavenMad

Senior Member

03-07-2013

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Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
Words.
I'm imagining a political Tea party, with all the City-State leaders discussing world issues, in hiding, behind the League's back.

Confirm this for me, so I have reason to draw it.


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Risemix

Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
Big boobs might help conveying gender in this game, but the point is that they shouldn't. Gender is also about personality, posture, grace... Do you think anyone would've had trouble telling Karma was a female before the rework? If anything, her new model, even with the dress, the boobs and everything, looks A LOT less feminine to me. Ironic.
It's funny that you say that, because a lot of the "anti-gender white knight internet crusader" types would say that posture, personality, and grace shouldn't convey gender either, or that nothing should, or that you shouldn't be able to tell gender by anything but appearance. For example, why shouldn't there be a man that behaves in a way that is more traditionally effeminate?

This argument is very hard to have, because while most people agree that gender equality and freedom to be, act, and dress the way you want are Good Things, no one agrees on how these things should be achieved and conveyed. Do you know that a lot of people would say your statement was in fact very sexist? I don't really agree and I think that in fact some degree of sexism is natural because players want to be able to identify in various ways with the characters they play, but it is important to note.

I guess what I'm saying is that Riot is never going to please everyone. They have a pretty wide variety of champion designs and try very hard to make sure everyone has champions they love. Quinn has an appearance and mannerism that is more traditionally "masculine" and her design suffered because of that, in a way.


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Destiny Doctor

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Senior Member

03-07-2013

Anyone else get the image of the original designers of reworked champs drinking alone in a dark room, crying softly to themselves? Or being tried and executed in a royal riot court for crimes against players?

No? Guess I let my mind wander all the way down the garden path and out the gate this evening.