So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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phatcat09

Senior Member

03-06-2013

Not only did Riot Kill Karma's parents they sullied their graves by taking her fans away D:

why Riot why!

I'm sorry if any red is still on, but my biggest issue is just the hypocrisy and outright obtuse explanations for "Why you did something" when most people are sitting here thinking to themselves "But we liked her character..."

We're going "I thought her character fit" and you're going "No one thought her character fit so we changed her now it does and she's bad ass eh...EH?!?!?...... FOOTBALL"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VAMQF8vnNo

Old pop culture references aside

It's just very off putting...and it's like you're trying to make us agree with you by saying we're wrong while going "but see what we're doing is what you guys really want okay...and because what you really want is right your're right! trust us...trust yourselves."

Creepy double think....

Which is even MORE off-putting in kosher words.


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win ed win

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Member

03-06-2013

She looks like a Wizard from D3 now! That's.. interesting, i'm glad they took the support-mage route rather than 0 CS support because thats how all the people who loved Karma played her, so kudos to that!

I'm not quite sure why RIOT decided to remove fans because that was her signature weapon. It's like remaking Heimerdinger and changing his weapon from a wrench to a bazooka. It takes away all the familiarity away from the champion. Now I realize that the remake is basically finished now so I don't see the fans coming back but it's kind of a shame that they god rid of Karma's signature weapon.

Riot has been good on reworks so I'll have faith that Karma will retain the gameplay elements that we liked about her.


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Bes7iA

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Senior Member

03-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoresuMakashi View Post
This. I feel like it should only have been for Karma veterans, not anyone who's suddenly going to bandwagon for a free skin.
yup, becasue if you suddenly give a free skin to everyone who get karma, then you would have a lot of people buying karma but it will still be a few who pay her, so you may say

"Wow we really make it right here, look at all theese people willing to play karma"

but how much of them will still play her tomorrow.


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Transmorgify

Senior Member

03-06-2013

I'm not an anatomy expert, so please let me know if I am way off base here, but she looks like a contortionist in her new splash art to me. Her head is pointed down while her back is almost perpendicular to her lower body. Surely there are less painful positions for a girl to be in if she really needs to show her bosom off that badly.

edit: wow that filter is touchy, changes **** to bosom you prudes


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Mattarias

Senior Member

03-06-2013

I'm gonna say this again.. Please, PLEASE, Please tell me Karma's new lore is more of a continuation, instead of a retcon. Something that tells us WHY she decided to stop being "on the fence" and go all "butt-kicking-mantra-style!" on everyone.


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Sarif Fice

Senior Member

03-06-2013

I just wish you would address the silhouette of the new karma. Looking at her current state and traditional skin you can see she is a flat chested woman with large hips and sexy legs. I love how unique this silhouette is. By changing her from an A cup to a DD she loses her unique body shape and ends up with a similar silhouette to Janna, and most other LoL female champs.

Was this change made purely to sell her to the general public? I am glad you kept her flat chested in her traditional skin, but I don't think a moderate bust size would hurt her new and beautiful design you have going.


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ZPPHR

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03-06-2013

Why don't you leave the fans on her Traditional skin? That would be better to maintain the feel of her old self.


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DemiDusk

Junior Member

03-06-2013

I am so happy for the Karma re-imagination!!! I have waited so long. I love Karma and can NOT wait for it!!! So excited!! <3


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RetardfromWoW

Junior Member

03-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bes7iA View Post
i just hope the CD dont be increased, that would kill karma, and send her to support only, and there are best choices to make if you want to support
It was already confirmed they were raising her Mantra CD.


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

03-06-2013

Argh less to crunch on then I was expecting... breath in. Alright.

Nope, I can't be happy about this. Not exactly screaming or breaking out torches and pitchforks but...well I'm basically disappointed and this wasn't what I was expecting. It's not all bad but it is what it is.

So why am I disappointed? Well, it's because I'm seeing the one thing I didn't want to see. A complete gut and refit. This is clearly the most intense visual rework Riot has done to date. It's on a level I honestly only expected Sion to require.

It doesn't look like Karma is retaining anything from her previously attempted visual design. Rather then a reworked Karma I am genuinely ready to call this an all new champion visual wise. No attempt to evoke the idea of balance in her outfit, no attempt to appear elegant, no attempt to appear classy, and no attempt to hit a new design niche...

This new direction feels very familiar. It makes me think of Diablo 3's female Monk, female mage design, and Irelia. It feels like an easy out by switching to more common visual design rather then having to tackle a harder visual concept. This approach feels like homogenization rather then embracing something unique and making it awesome.


Now I should mention a bit about my perspective because that's the one I'm sharing. I played the D3 female monk and clearly I enjoyed the visuals enough to play her. I'd also say that Vi most closely resembles the kind of women I'd find sexy. I have no great issue with Elise but also greatly enjoy Leona and Diana. I favor the existence of diverse designs and for female champions to be dressed in what they'd choose to wear. I enjoyed Karma's visuals for how interesting and different she was without having any attraction to her on a "sexy" scale. I felt that Karma had many visual flaws and agree for the need of a visual redesign. Even a very dramatic one. A complete gut and redo is way more intense then I wanted to see though.


Let's hit a popular topic first. Why Sexy?

Looking purely at the new base Karma skin. I'm a bit shocked at how much skin she is showing. Her right leg is showing a strip of skin on the hip. Her left leg is totally visible. She's basically wearing a tanktop with an elaborate belt over the end to pull it into the rest of the outfit. Vambraces but bare skin along most of the arm and shoulder. Weird shoulder pad...things...

So asking myself Why? I pull up Irelia. It's pretty clear that she was used as a basis for "This is what Ionian's dress like". I'll confess that in cross referencing other Ionion champions I see a tendency toward skin. Perhaps Ionia is a warm climate that allows for such clothing choices? Still don't feel like I have hit an answer but let me switch gears.

Looking at her new Traditional is interesting. This feels quite a bit better to me. It feels more like old Karma adjusted her dress so she can wear it in battle. It notably has no issue with being overly symmetrical or too mirrored like her current base skin does. Color scheme totally thrown out the window. This design feels like it has superior elements to her new base skin and improves on elements of her old skin.

One interesting detail is the thickness of her "cloak". Traditional looks like it's made out of a cloth because it's got a degree of thickness to it. The edges look a bit sewn in the first screen shot. Comparing to the New skin with the same pose that fabric looks closer to satin or some other very thin material.

Another detail is the leggings. Her Traditional looks like she is wearing boots. Boots within which she has her pants tucked in. The knees look like a designed knee pad or just a quirk of how the leggins are layed out. In contrast her new skin evokes the feeling that her right leg is in a long stocking and her left leg is open for mosquito feasting.

Moving into the chest area the Traditional again evokes the feeling of layered thick cloth. The new skin instead appears to be thin, light, and airy material .

Taking these elements as a whole. The new traditional feels like something appropriate, but stylized, to wear on a hike or outdoor walk. The new skin looks like it's begging for a dozen cuts and minor wounds from bugs, branches, bites, scratches, low hanging hedges, flying daggers, and poison burns. In the traditional case I can make a justification that it might be treated to be more reliant then most case. In the later I am just confused.

I think that overall this feels like an attempt to "sexify" her. Considering that another example is available right alongside it of how many small elements could be different it's hard to see any other conclusion.

Now, there might be room to argue that weather or Ionian tradition angle. However, is this what the leader of Ionia is going to wear? Shouldn't her outfit be more elaborate and evoke the station to which she belongs? Shouldn't it evoke how she needs to be out there fighting? I fail to see how she is showing herself off as unique by adopting Irelia's fashion sense without using armor.

Mantle
I may have asked this elsewhere but I can't spot it. She's wearing a mantle? Where is it?

No Dress?
While I'm generally favorable toward the new traditional it needs to be said. She's losing her dress. I totally agree she needed to lose her tooth paste tube dress. I felt the emphais should have been on the tooth paste tube part of that and she could have retained her dress.

I am disappointed to see she doesn't really have any kind of dress. I feel there was room to make a dress, even one worn in battle, work for her. I did feel she needed to both have and show her feet / legs.

I think if I could have anything I'd take Traditional's layout and just add a bit more hanging cloth to push the dressy vibe further.


Moving away from the clothing she is wearing...

Glowy!
I'm pretty happy to see this. I felt that one of the areas Karma could have improved was having more effects occur along her outfit. So I generally like the glow. Even her leg tattoo. Which might be the explanation for why she is even showing that leg. Though I'd rather see that glow occur on or through cloth/armor then directly on skin to have a bit of both worlds.


Head and Hair
Oddly for a goal of making her look less "matron-y" you chose a very mature hair style. I don't hate it but I was rather indifferent on Karma's hair unless it looked bad. Which it doesn't. It looks pretty good. I like the choice to add a Tiara which fits along the hairstyle.

I don't really have much opinion on the face. It feels a bit more youthful and you may have toned her skin color down. A youthful face may have been needed but I'm a bit unsure about the skin color change when looking back and forth from traditional.

Floaty Thing...
Like the dragon. Hate the bits surrounding it.

Bit mixed about it being above her head. It's likely the best place for it and her traditional skin placement is much better then live.

Unfortunately, I might be getting screwed here. I play pretty much only Sakura Karma. I do this because I dislike the floaty neck thing she has in her base skin as much as because I like Sakura. Since this appears to be a new thing I'm a bit concerned I'll be stuck with weird floaty things regardless of what Karma I choose.

However, it does seem like a neat direction. A Sun God symbol above Sun Goddess would be interesting to see. So this is an area I feel like is an overall improvement and good design idea.

Still I dislike the bits on the side. Irelia does not have floaty clothing bits and I've always been unsure why Karma had them. They appeared to serve no purpose in her old skin and where a distracting element of her model for me. It does appear that the power of the dragon is channeled throw the sides now...but I feel like I'd prefer it if the floaty bit was simplified to just the symbol and some energy particle effects flowed from Karma up into it.

In the case of traditional. I wish I could just remove it entirely, switch the center piece to a Ying Yang, or bring the dragon over.

No Fan.
Looking into Karma in a detailed fashion really sold me on two fans being a mistake. No fans feels like a very bad idea and I think Riot is really missing an opportunity here.

A single fan is two things. It is a device that can be open and large or it can be a device that can be closed and have a wand like shape. Her old skin and animations left the fans open all the freaking time and she barely did anything with them. They never transitioned between those two shapes and never really got used.

Simply cutting the fan misses having animations where she flips it open or closed. Animations where she passes it from one hand to another. Animations where she tosses it in the air or taps her chin while thinking. She could do some spell casts with the fan closed and some with it open....and it'd still be a fan.

Maybe it's the Spanish heritage in me but fans can be really cool in motion. I've never participated but Spanish dance shows what a fan in motion can look like. It's just cool in my opinion.

Let me give an example of how a fan can be added to her new skin.
Karma holds a closed fan in her right hand. She casts a spell without using Mantra by waving it like a Wand (or Generals baton!). She casts mantra with the spell and pops the fan open while she waves it. An image of the dragon on the fan glows during the spell cast.

This further enforces some of those new elements of inner flame and the dragon while still being a fan.

Animations
Hard to judge because I just have a screenshot. I won't be able to make a final conclusion without seeing her in action.

Still I have a dread suspicion. The screenshots have some stills from her in mid cast animation....and the way they are positioned intakes she's going to be "flapping her hands". Using normal spell casting "fling your arms around" ways...looking like every other Mage. I'm thus worried that her animations will turn out to be a bunch more flapping of arms but without a fan. Granted it won't have the problem at the same level her live skin does due to assymetrical use of her hands and pose.

Pose/Stance
Great choice. Very happy to see her less mirrored. Her old pose was a major contributing factor and her stance looks pretty good.

Spells effects!?
I'll need to see more but I like what I see in the screen shots. I think the choice of pallet was a good one. Her glows and spell effects appear to have this warm green with some blue and pink getting involved that just works out.



Final thoughts
From the blurry leaked image I was worried about worse. There are a number of elements and changes I do like her. Overall I may not be happy, dissapointed, and not interested. However, I was initially worried I'd be disgusted seeing Karma become popular (what I wanted) and have to see a terrible skin the entire time. (the monkey's paw).

It's not a terrible skin in and of itself. It'd likely fly if this was not a rework. I just see too much lost potential. Maybe that opinion will adjust but I doubt it can do so by much.

I think that the greater focus on inner fire is an interesting tie in though and a good idea. It's a good way to better explain and sell her spellcasting and how she goes about it. I also think bringing a symbol of Ionia into play is a good idea. I don't think "balance" needed to be lost to achieve it that though.

Quality/Skill wise this is clearly a well crafted skin. It's got some complexity to it.

Now there may be some tech issues that caused the skin to end up where it is but it's not really possible for me to see those. I also can't really factor in this new VO and I dunno what to think.

While I give Riot Kudos for the good idea of making a separate traditional skin and feel that's a great idea that says good things about Riot. I also don't feel like anything else about Karma was aimed at her current audience. Unless her characterization (voice/animations) can convince me otherwise it appears this visual rework sacrificed what her existing fanbase liked about her visuals in order to grab something entirely separate.

I am however, more hopeful of Karma's mechanic design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Here's the thing. We want to retain but we also want to advance. We want to advance the story, the gameplay and the look. We want to make sure that as the player experience evolves, the content evolves as well. This is unique in the industry. Not a lot of companies get the chance to reiterate on their older content. This is an amazing opportunity that we have for relaunch to strengthen and remake a solid foundation for champion which we see opportunities for more people to enjoy.
I do not begrudge the desire to advance or the desire to remake something old to higher standards. I do not even begrudge the desire to reiterate old content.

However, this was not just an opportunity to just make Karma someone that can reach a wider audience or hit some other niche. It was an opportunity to expand the appeal of Karma and fix the problems. Removal is not fixing and neither is amputation. (even if you want a sick robotic arm it won't be your arm)

Worse this does not appear to hit the goals of diverse female characters at all. I'm so used to this kind of female caster look it isn't even funny.

I fail to see how taking an impractical dress and making an impractical lack of dress strengthens Riot's visual design.

If this is how Ionians dress and look and that is part of the message. I highly highly recommend a comic showing Karma in court or alongside other Ionians be released alongside the relaunch. Show her alone and all that can be used to judge her is her past and her other skins. Show her alongside others and this can social engineer the message to get a better response by showing more of your goal.