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So, about that Karma leak...

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Darkwahn

Member

03-06-2013

Quote:
Morello:
Maybe so, but I think if that's the only price we pay (and with the new rig, the fans had to go), I think it's extremely minor for the gains.


Can a new champ have fans? Maybe someone who fights like Anji Mito from Guilty Gear possibly?


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MonsterPwn

Senior Member

03-06-2013

Hello, I am not a Karma enthusiast but I do understand the adoration of her two dancing fans and have been enjoying the feedback and response to the Karma changes. In a grand effort of appeasement to the true Karma players from Riot, do you think we may see a recurrence of the fans in her animations?


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RG Stylus

Senior Member

03-06-2013

Well done Riot.

I have to say you guys have come a long way and I'm loving it. I was around when Karma was released and I was very excited back then and am very much so now for this to happen, those teaser screenshots make me all gitty inside. I know you guys are going to come through on top with her remake, don't listen to the nay-sayers they just need something to complain about. The fact is not only are you improving her visually and thematically but you guys are keeping her traditional look in the form of a free skin for those own her...I guess this is just a huge thank you post but definitely deserved.

My only complaint now, which isn't really a complaint more of a suggestion which I think I already have the answer to. It is regarding new skins coming out, we all know what happened with lux and I agree with both parties, the lovers and the haters but what it comes down to is what Morello said, this is a good skin but it isnt "the one" so to speak. The only thing that is on my mind would be the new skins coming out...example being the new gladiator Draven, people on the forums have been asking and waiting for a draven skin and after all this time we get a gladiator skin, which is great don't get me wrong [esp since it's for the release of new servers?] but we all know what skin we are waiting for...and that is fire dancer Draven. I guess the next skin in question has to be the new Soraka skin, again this isn't a hate but the expectations were high and it just felt undelivered. Mostly just the look I guess, the dress isn't fully all the way around and it just...sits there and moves around as 1 big mass.

Keep up the good work though guys, definitely rock stars in my books I just think more idea's should have been on the table before crafting each skin...

I guess this is the end of the rant where people are going to expect a TL;DR but that's not gonna happen because well I can't just sum this up in one sentence.


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Mynt

Senior Member

03-06-2013

Quote:
kjj92:
I have to say that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read abou Asia as an Asian. They actually have female clothes that exposed the whole chest in Korea before the Japanese colonization. Exposed shoulders and legs? They are nothing.

This.

Bare shoulders being informal has nothing to do with Asia. Even in the states, it'd be unacceptable to show bare shoulders at work, at church, whatever.


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Beatnation

Senior Member

03-06-2013

Quote:
Morello:
Looks like our cover’s been blown…

Yep, this is new Karma. Yep, this is a big change. We believe Karma needed a reimagining, and we are going to talk to you about why we feel that’s the case. But before we dig into it, there’s something you should probably know first – anyone who owns Karma before her relaunch will get this Traditional Karma skin for free:




This is important, because we know there are lots of fans (heh) of Karma’s existing look, and we don’t want to take that for granted.

We actually have been working on a dev diary that talks about our thought process behind Karma’s relaunch, but since the cat’s out of the bag…we’ll share the story and art sections of the dev diary right here, right now. We’ll release the full dev diary, including details on her new kit, when she’s ready for PBE (which is pretty soon). Without further ado, here’s her new splash:




Grumpy Monkey will talk a little about her new visual design, and then Runaan will give you some insight into Karma’s reimagined backstory.

.


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KlanKuKlux

Junior Member

03-06-2013

may I suggest that you make the traditional karma skin for people who had 10+ games as Karma pre announcement. I do like the way karma look currently and want to use the traditional karma skin but if everybody has it then it will hold much less value.


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spectre755

Junior Member

03-06-2013

Quote:
morello:
it's case-by-case, mostly depending on if the personality or theme has little going on overall. Many champs are fine here, some will need heavier lifting.


Quote:
morello:
some will need heavier lifting.


629708 do you even lift? Get on my choppa!


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get dat birdman

Senior Member

03-06-2013

Quote:
RiotAmes:
As someone who has been involved with the Karma relaunch since the beginning of this project, Karma's story for me is about her transition from the reserved politician to an active leader. She has all this power- her story references it ( By tapping into her inner resilience, she discovered that she could bring great force to bear against her foes on the battlefield. ), but has chosen not to use it to its potential in the past. What costs might that bring with it? In her search for balance and compromise, what might she have lost that a firm stance wouldn't? She hasn't lost her ability to negotiate or guide, but she's gained more conviction to act.

We want Karma to represent balance between the 'old' Ionia and the 'traditional' Ionia - the wise Elders and their traditions and the near-militant youth who grew up under Noxus' thumb. There's costs to making that transition as well. I've got a few stories cooked up about her experiences, but that's all non-cannon and I won't subject you to my fan fictions.


I'm unsure how or why this explains or dictates such a drastic change in appearance. Can you possibly elaborate?


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SoresuMakashi

Senior Member

03-06-2013

Okay, in the past, I've had a lot to say about Karma, having been directly involved in discussions with Morello and IronStylus about the rework. I'm going to approach this response as a long time Karma fan, but try to be as open as possible.

Quote:
Morello:
But before we dig into it, there’s something you should probably know first – anyone who owns Karma before her relaunch will get this Traditional Karma skin for free

A thoughtful gesture that is sure to bring up the nostalgic feels, but TBH I preferred the original skin. The black and white dichotomy was very clear, and the dress was a unique and creative addition to LoL. On top of this, now that you've made this annoucement, everyone is just going to buy Karma and get a free skin, completely ruining the exclusive feel. I would have loved to have met with a fellow Karma running the traditional skin in a year's time, and spent the game reminiscing about the old days.

In fact, I'm going to be frank and say that I'm almost insulted by this (irrational is it may be). Probably because the small Karma community stuck with her through thick and thin for 2 years, through the balance issues, through the "who Karma's?" jokes, the flaming in champion select etc.. And now these random people who didn't play her, didn't like her, and probably thought she was useless are going to have their "appreciation" equally recognised?! I'm not exactly sure why (empathy?), but it annoys me greatly to think that some of the people who have this skin would have been completely dismissive of her pre-rework. They didn't care about her. They just wanted a new skin.

Quote:
Grumpy Monkey:

Karma’s original look had a few shortcomings that we’d like to address for her relaunch. For starters, her aesthetic was hard to read and didn’t really convey much about her character. Her fans, dress and posture didn’t reflect her playstyle or storyline. There was a lot we could change about Karma to bring a more cohesive vision to the character.

I, and I suspect much of the Karma community, simply do not agree with this at all. Her aesthetic was very clearly an indication of what she was like. The dress, fans, and gait suggested her elegance and regality, while the colours emphasised the balanced (offense/defense) nature of her skillset. However, I'm probably flogging a dead horse here since you guys have committed to a change. I've already made my opinion on this clear enough. This preview hasn't changed my view.

Secondly, why did you guys feel a need to give her pants on only one leg, as well as exposing her upper thighs? Was there really a need to show skin on (it can be argued) the most refined champion in the League? The exposed shoulders are alright in my opinion, but from the waist down, she seems thoroughly out of character. In terms of her costume (excluding the mantle), this is NOT the Karma we know.

Quote:
Grumpy Monkey:

First, we made sure that Karma’s new look showed off her status as a paragon of Ionia while appearing unique on the battlefield. Her floating fans weren’t cutting it as magical conduits, so we replaced them with a powerful manifestation of her Ionian will. Now, Karma carries the draconic symbol of Ionia with her at all times. We also decked her out in Ionian garb to emphasize her allegiance. We also crafted a new set of animations that emphasized her status as a champion of Ionia rather than a matronly diplomat.

I thought her fans were great for portraying her refined demeanour. I didn't feel a need to remove them, but will not argue on this point.

The original Karma also had Ionian artifacts (the dragons framing the mirror in her splash, as well as her mantle), so you haven't really made an improvement. I personally preferred the old one, in fact, but again, I will not pursue this point due to potential bias.

Quote:
Grumpy Monkey:

This new approach to Karma transforms her into a badass conduit of inner strength that brings Ionia’s strength to every battlefield.

Here's the thing: She's not meant to be badass. And you know what? That's not a problem. Lulu is meant to be cute. Nocturne is meant to be scary. Zilean is meant to be a wise old man. There must always be a variety of archetypes in a game, and Karma filled a niche (elegant and composed).

Quote:
RiotRunaan:
In the past, we’ve created engaging characters that epitomize the ideals of their homeland. Garen as the Might of Demacia or Darius as the Hand of Noxus are good examples. With Karma, we wanted to capture Ionia, a place of wisdom and great spiritual power.

We also wanted to hold onto much of Karma's characterization. She's a strong leader and a mystic who stands apart from other champions.

This bit sounds good, Karma does indeed capture the spirit of Ionia. Although the new visual look seems to have reduced the amount that she "stands apart from other champions". She still looks different, yes, and if this was a new champion, I'd be happy with the amount of creativity, but I think it suffers in comparison to the old Karma, whose aesthetics were easily one of the most unique in LoL.

Quote:
RiotRunaan:

The connection between Karma’s motif and playstyle was never as clear as it could have been. She didn’t have a distinct theme that tied everything together and brought out the badass spiritual leader she is in her lore.

Discussed above.

Quote:
RiotRunaan:

Ionia is a land that has suffered greatly. The ongoing struggle has taken its toll on Karma's calm, composed demeanor. We wanted to evolve Karma's personality to suit her place in a nation filled with internal strife and awakened ferocity.


An interesting development. The old Karma took an "eye of the storm" approach: Always free of internal struggle despite war and suffering that she endures. Now, she sounds like she will begin to be internally conflicted, making her more human and less perfect. This is a new dimension to her lore that I think has potential, as long as it's not overdone (She's still a representation of Buddhist philosophy, remember?). I'm yet to see how well this theme is executed, and will withhold judgement until then.

As a side note, since we're talking about the "ongoing struggle taking its toll", can you at least make old Karma canon, and have this transformation/rework as part of the lore? Would be cool, and provide some good context.

Quote:
RiotRunaan:

Karma can now manifest her inner spirit and willpower as powerful magical energy. With her inner flame she can inspire and protect her allies, damage foes and manipulate the spiritual bonds between those around her. We’ve also taken her Ionian ties a step further: her magic springs from the crest of twin dragons in her mantle, literally and figuratively transforming her into a symbol of her homeland.

The changes we’ve made have given new life to Karma’s title, “The Enlightened One.” In the past, her title conveyed her serenity and calm. Now, it represents the enlightened path she’s found for Ionia: a new path, merging the spiritual traditions of Ionia with the nation’s newfound strength.

Finally, we've given Karma new VO that conveys her internal struggle and intensity. Karma’s attempting to unite a wounded and divided nation, which is no easy task! We want you to believe she’s got the inner strength—and inner flame—that it takes to persevere.

Conclusion

Karma’s now the powerful Ionian leader she was always meant to be. Through her determination and indomitable spirit, she's set to rebuild Ionia and inspire her people to greatness.


Again, I haven't seen the execution, but it sounds interesting on paper. However, with this newfound focus on "internal struggle", and the new perspective on her title "The Enlightened One", care must be taken that Karma's serene nature (her core theme) is not completely lost among the angst.

Conclusion
From a lore perspective: This looks like it could be good. I sincerely hope that the new lore and VO will be well executed.
From an art perspective: Frankly, I'm disappointed, especially considering how good the original Karma was. The new costume simply doesn't feel like the Karma I know and love at all. It seems to have lost a dimension which has been subsequently replaced with standard female LoL-ness. In fairness, some of the new elements aren't that bad. The draconian emblem and mantle are decent replacements, but they feel completely unnecessary. They just damage iconicity for little real gain.The fans and her old mantle were already great. In fact, that applies to the visual rework as a whole. Karma was already great to start with, and I think that it is the failure to realise this that has been the root cause.

Other notes:
Are the other skins (Sakura and Sun Goddess) getting changed? If so, will we be getting previews of the splash art and models?
In the images, the dragons seem to glow so brightly that it's difficult to make out exactly what they are.
What's happening to that Stormblade skin that was datamined a while back?
What's going to happen to her League judgement? Will it remain canon?


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Aceria

Junior Member

03-06-2013

Let me just take a look at this new splash art real quick.

1. Her spine is completely broken (let me guess, the same crappy artist who drew Elise, Syndra and Zyra? If so and if not, still, shame on you.).
2. Her breasts are coming out of her collar bone (same note as above).
3. Her fans are gone.
4. Her yin-yang black-and-white theme is gone.

You just completely ruined a champion I've loved since I started playing. Thanks, Riot.

Thank goodness you're giving me the vintage skin for free, because that's all I'll be using. The only thing I like about this new redesign? The color purple.

It would be one thing if this were a completely new champion. I wouldn't be commenting; I wouldn't care (except for the terrible anatomy of the splash art, which I'd still despise). But to show me this and tell me it's Karma? No. Not a chance. This is a completely different champion, visually. Show someone who doesn't play the new splash art and the old splash art, side by side. If you don't tell them it's the same person, I can almost guarantee that they'll think it's two different people. The only similarities I see between the two are the darker skin, the eye markings, the short hair, and the floaty thing behind her. I might think that they're sisters, or that the new one was the daughter of the old one. But the same? No. Nothing about the new art feels like the old Karma. This is not her.

You may say that the fans weren't iconic enough for her themes, but they were. Anyone who knows about her right now knows her by her fans. She's "that fan lady." And how does this render her other skins? Completely useless, I'd bet. You even took them from the vintage skin. I've been happy with other VUs by you in the past, Riot, but this? I am completely devastated. I was looking forward to this rework forever, I told all my friends I was, and now I'm ranting to them about how awful this is.

You completely changed her body type--that splash art sure does make her breasts look enormous. You changed her age, or so I can discern by the two splash arts. And WHY did you do that to her outfit? Granted, her original outfit was a bit awkward--I love the way you handled the upgrade on the vintage skin, I really do. But what is up with the leg exposed all the way to the upper thigh, in the new art? Did you REALLY have to do that? You couldn't maybe give her some shorts beneath, or make the top part of the dress longer? It looks like you gave her a tattoo just to show off one leg, or justify showing off her leg. It looks like you looked at the old art and decided, "Hm, needs more *** appeal...let's show off more skin and give her a boob job." I was so happy with the way Quinn was designed--yay, a woman in a practical outfit--but this is ridiculous. Karma isn't a champion who's going to be doing a lot with her legs, other than running. There's no reason one should be naked. You could have given her pants or shorts or handled it like you did with the new vintage skin.

I understand that this was a chance to evolve, and a great one at that--but this is simply not the same character I loved. I am sorely disappointed. And I know very few will read this post due to its length, and my words make zero difference in the first place, but I had to offer my two cents here. Maybe I'm not the only one who thinks this way, who knows.

Anyway, TL;DR: This isn't the same champion in the slightest. I am now prepared for a torrent of downvotes.