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I think BORK is in a good spot, I just think it should cost more...

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plasmatorture

Recruiter

03-04-2013

I still don't really understand why BotRK when from an ad caster/bruiser item to an ADC as item.


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Smellis

Senior Member

03-04-2013

How about that liandry's bug fix us ap casters have been waiting for? Is that gonna roll out soon!?


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InertBlowfish

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quite honestly, I thought BotRK was perfectly balanced BEFORE you swapped out the flat AD for the attack speed.

Nobody was complaining about it back then, and I was rushing it just to win trades early in my lane with that awesome active.

It also gave a nice little bit of early game damage, and was a good item on the likes of Talon as well.

And then you would build attack speed to COMPLIMENT the BotRK after lane phase, instead of it being a given on the item.

Basically it took a statikk shiv/BotRK or a PD/BotRK for the item to be effective, and then it took up most of your build getting it to work - but it worked.

Now it's kinda like, "Hey, I gotta buy this item because it's essentially just adding a different type of damage source on top of my flat AD".


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GreekAsTheGods

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
Potentially - When we changed it from S3 to S2, we nerfed the item pretty heavily by removing the attack speed slow from the active.

However, the other portion of it was that S2 Randuin's was always bugged to have an additive AS slow instead of mulitplicative AS slow - and fixing that bug has shown just how powerful the passive slow was.

It's taken a bit to percolate and see the full effects of but again - there are two major goals - Make sure that items can counter each other - and then make sure that the countered vs. uncountered case isn't so drastic as to shut out all possible other builds.

Here's the fundamental crux of the issue: OP means a lot of things - but in this case particularly, the item is game-warping the AD-carry versus AD-carry case.

As bad as Bloodthirster establishing lane dominance was - this is worse - and thus it could've been awful or balanced and still overpowered, just based on what it does to the laning cases.


Just going by gold efficiency though.... the base stats on it alone are worth something like 400 more gold than the item's total cost. And that's without taking into account the on-hit and active, which are arguably the most valuable parts....

So even just from a mathematical standpoint in terms of gold efficiency, the numbers really didn't match up.


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Noric

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:

However, the other portion of it was that S2 Randuin's was always bugged to have an additive AS slow instead of mulitplicative AS slow - and fixing that bug has shown just how powerful the passive slow was.
.

You have no idea how much i have been trying to figure out whether you converted the AS slow on the warden's mail passive to slowing based on max AS instead of acting like negative bonus AS(s2 warden's mail).


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God Of Gold 5

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
So let me talk about Blade of the Ruined King a little - and what kind of led to the state of the item as it is on live.

Let's get this out of the way first - I screwed up here, if only by judging from the reactions and the state of the competitive solo queue. People feel that their AD carry builds are being unduly constrained and they feel the need to buy the item to counter itself. That, in itself, the AD carry versus AD carry case - is a problem.

So, let's get into the crunchy design portions of the thing and talk about it

1. The item is DPS efficient on squishy characters

Kind of.

Fundamentally, any item built off of current health will always look overpowered when it works. This is because the optimal case for current health damage never actually happens in game.

For example, let's say that BoRK breaks even with BT at 1700 health for the target. What this actually means is that BoRK breaks even with BT at 1700 health for the target assuming there is no other damage sources affected the target at all.

Given that almost every character has base damage on their skills and the like - the balance of numbers shifts terribly - For example, if your mage deals 600 AoE damage to the enemy team - BoRK needs to be extra-efficient to still be a valid HP counter at this point.

This is also why the active is as strong as it is - The use of the active nerfs the passive damage of the item.

2. Current % Health Paradigms are flawed - because the AD carry will follow after the burst casters


This is somewhat true to a certain extent - but the goal of a counter-item is to counter niche cases not strengthen already existing cases. The current BoRK for example, excels at self-peel and is especially good in 1v1 case against bruisers (regardless of what class you are.)

And the current health paradigm allows the item to essentially self-nerf itself when other elements of the game are strong (burst casters).

3. It is a mush-rush first item for a carry?

Kind of.

Again, this boils down to - How much damage is your support adding to your combo? In a Leona lane, for example, you'd be hard pressed to argue that their HP pool is actually 1200 - or how effective your autoattacks are.

4. The active adds more burst than the previous incarnation.

Potentially but it's generally weaker than the previous active - and that's why it rolled out - it was viewed as net neutral in most contexts.

150 + 0.5 TAD on an item with 45 AD roughly breaks even with the previous active at 1466 health - which is an HP threshold that only tanks/bruisers break early.

But the item is clearly overpowered on live and ruining the game experience!

Most likely. However, I'm more concerned with whether the item feels counterable at this stage. Rest assured though, we're not going to wait on the next patch to fix it. We knew going out that the item could have come out pretty crazy - and watching it over the weekend - it has been pretty crazy at is.

So we'll be hotfixing this as soon as we're comfortable with the server situation (Along with some other bugs.)



Sounds like people are looking at the tab screen _too_ much and are getting an irrational fear of an item. Stun champions, like sion, syndra or even fiddlesticks really don't give a **** about your bork.

Top tier maybe don't know how to play? That could explain how lil ole bronze 5 me could womp a plat 3.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-04-2013

Quote:

Just going by gold efficiency though.... the base stats on it alone are worth something like 400 more gold than the item's total cost. And that's without taking into account the on-hit and active, which are arguably the most valuable parts....
Every tier 3 item is gold efficient - even discounting their actives and their passives.

Almost. There are very few exceptions.

Quote:

Quite honestly, I thought BotRK was perfectly balanced BEFORE you swapped out the flat AD for the attack speed.

Nobody was complaining about it back then, and I was rushing it just to win trades early in my lane with that awesome active.

It also gave a nice little bit of early game damage, and was a good item on the likes of Talon as well.


It may have been but the changes in total look something like this:

1. Make Cutlass more accessible - less awful feeling to build.

2. Make BoRK stop competing with your biggest damage items and be seen as something you could "pick up" on the side.

3. Stop some AD assassins from using it as a raw nuke. Yes, I nerfed Zed's damage output with the change.

4. Help some AS-centric fighters who were doing poorly (Irelia / Udyr, etc.) by giving them a decent option.

5. Try to nerf the strategic objective control a bit (note: Failed on this.)

So - essentially I felt like there was significantly more gains to be had from changing the item rather than letting it sit and seem that niche and inacessible - but clearly I overshot.


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Captain Xae

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Personally, I'm mostly concerned about the counterplay as a bruiser to an AD carry with a black cleaver, last whisper, a blade of the ruined king. What do i build to survive against that? Because of the immense armor shred it screams that I build hp since BotRK has diminishing returns on the passive as my hp gets lower, but as the carry builds crit later in the game I just feel punished whether I build any health or armor at all.


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Guilty Gun

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
EndersAnts:
Sounds like people are looking at the tab screen _too_ much and are getting an irrational fear of an item. Stun champions, like sion, syndra or even fiddlesticks really don't give a **** about your bork.

Top tier maybe don't know how to play? That could explain how lil ole bronze 5 me could womp a plat 3.


If you're Sion and you stun all three of the enemy team that build Blade of the Ruined King, I'd like to see it.


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Garen Mechanics

Senior Member

03-04-2013

The funny thing is, BotRK has made me enjoy playing ad carry more than I ever did- I feel as though I can actually fend for myself with a self peel/heal.
Even if BotRK is overpowered, I still want that utility SOMEWHERE on my kit. The zehpyr item could be the utility stick for the ad carry- what if we removed the lifeleech component and added a unique active to zephyr:
Active: Gust:Steals 30% of enemy movement speed for 3 seconds marking an enemy- every autoattack or single-target ability landed on the enemy extends the movement speed bonus for .5 seconds to a maximum of 2 seconds added