I think BORK is in a good spot, I just think it should cost more...

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Lörd Smurfington

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Thank God Xyph.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-04-2013
2 of 30 Riot Posts

Quote:
As far as im concerned, it does have a counter: randuins. But when you see like 7-8 borks and rands per game, that is a fking problem. It counters each other, but that leads to stale builds and decision making
I completely agree with you on this point.

There are two goals here though:

1. Make sure that the counter chains work.

2. Make sure that the counters are not too hard.

In this case - it's a clear sign that BoRK is too strong and its counter is too strong, thus shutting out the large portion of other itemization. It highlights the fact that *both* items are too strong currently, and nerfing the effects of both help equalize the counter vs. uncounted cases closer to provide item variety.

Quote:
Why was there little response to PBE feedback Xyph?
There were pretty significant iterations in response to PBE feedback.

1. The active changed to reduce the damage generally.
2. The premitigation life-steal was stripped from the item.
3. We increased the cost of the item from 2650 to 2850.

Obviously those weren't enough changes - but we were continuously nerfing the feedback.

One of the tricky things about PBE feedback is that, due to the smaller player pool - generally skill discrepencies between matches are far greater - which makes collating feedback difficult.


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IS11d6327cb35cafc124891

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Hurrahhhh finnaly an hotfix !! thanks riot !


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Chocoßo

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
So let me talk about Blade of the Ruined King a little - and what kind of led to the state of the item as it is on live.

Let's get this out of the way first - I screwed up here, if only by judging from the reactions and the state of the competitive solo queue. People feel that their AD carry builds are being unduly constrained and they feel the need to buy the item to counter itself. That, in itself, the AD carry versus AD carry case - is a problem.

So, let's get into the crunchy design portions of the thing and talk about it

1. The item is DPS efficient on squishy characters

Kind of.

Fundamentally, any item built off of current health will always look overpowered when it works. This is because the optimal case for current health damage never actually happens in game.

For example, let's say that BoRK breaks even with BT at 1700 health for the target. What this actually means is that BoRK breaks even with BT at 1700 health for the target assuming there is no other damage sources affected the target at all.

Given that almost every character has base damage on their skills and the like - the balance of numbers shifts terribly - For example, if your mage deals 600 AoE damage to the enemy team - BoRK needs to be extra-efficient to still be a valid HP counter at this point.

This is also why the active is as strong as it is - The use of the active nerfs the passive damage of the item.

2. Current % Health Paradigms are flawed - because the AD carry will follow after the burst casters


This is somewhat true to a certain extent - but the goal of a counter-item is to counter niche cases not strengthen already existing cases. The current BoRK for example, excels at self-peel and is especially good in 1v1 case against bruisers (regardless of what class you are.)

And the current health paradigm allows the item to essentially self-nerf itself when other elements of the game are strong (burst casters).

3. It is a mush-rush first item for a carry?

Kind of.

Again, this boils down to - How much damage is your support adding to your combo? In a Leona lane, for example, you'd be hard pressed to argue that their HP pool is actually 1200 - or how effective your autoattacks are.

4. The active adds more burst than the previous incarnation.

Potentially but it's generally weaker than the previous active - and that's why it rolled out - it was viewed as net neutral in most contexts.

150 + 0.5 TAD on an item with 45 AD roughly breaks even with the previous active at 1466 health - which is an HP threshold that only tanks/bruisers break early.

But the item is clearly overpowered on live and ruining the game experience!

Most likely. However, I'm more concerned with whether the item feels counterable at this stage. Rest assured though, we're not going to wait on the next patch to fix it. We knew going out that the item could have come out pretty crazy - and watching it over the weekend - it has been pretty crazy at is.

So we'll be hotfixing this as soon as we're comfortable with the server situation (Along with some other bugs.)
if you're nerfing it can you just nerf the slow or something, these past few days where people haven't been stacking health have been so fun, just like back in season 2


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Borigrad

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Well at least you acknowledge the item needs hotfixing. Sooner better then later though.


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Guilty Gun

Senior Member

03-04-2013

It needs to lose the passive lifesteal completely.

I'd rather the active stay because it is unique (well, its a better Gunblade), but that huge lifesteal swing need to come off BotRK and Blidgewater Cutless completely.



You guys utterly dropped the ball. Again. Need more playtesting of this stuff before you just throw it onto live.


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Bungboy

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Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I completely agree with you on this point.

There are two goals here though:

1. Make sure that the counter chains work.

2. Make sure that the counters are not too hard.

In this case - it's a clear sign that BoRK is too strong and its counter is too strong, thus shutting out the large portion of other itemization. It highlights the fact that *both* items are too strong currently, and nerfing the effects of both help equalize the counter vs. uncounted cases closer to provide item variety.
Randuins Omen has been OP for a long time (since preseason). It's far too hard a counter to ad champions when compared to an item like Thornmail.


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Corran

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Senior Member

03-04-2013

Why not just make the tank buster item scale off of bonus health instead of current or max health? That way it's effective versus high health targets and not squishies.


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yami889

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
So let me talk about Blade of the Ruined King a little - and what kind of led to the state of the item as it is on live.

Let's get this out of the way first - I screwed up here, if only by judging from the reactions and the state of the competitive solo queue. People feel that their AD carry builds are being unduly constrained and they feel the need to buy the item to counter itself. That, in itself, the AD carry versus AD carry case - is a problem.

So, let's get into the crunchy design portions of the thing and talk about it

1. The item is DPS efficient on squishy characters

Kind of.

Fundamentally, any item built off of current health will always look overpowered when it works. This is because the optimal case for current health damage never actually happens in game.

For example, let's say that BoRK breaks even with BT at 1700 health for the target. What this actually means is that BoRK breaks even with BT at 1700 health for the target assuming there is no other damage sources affected the target at all.

Given that almost every character has base damage on their skills and the like - the balance of numbers shifts terribly - For example, if your mage deals 600 AoE damage to the enemy team - BoRK needs to be extra-efficient to still be a valid HP counter at this point.

This is also why the active is as strong as it is - The use of the active nerfs the passive damage of the item.

2. Current % Health Paradigms are flawed - because the AD carry will follow after the burst casters


This is somewhat true to a certain extent - but the goal of a counter-item is to counter niche cases not strengthen already existing cases. The current BoRK for example, excels at self-peel and is especially good in 1v1 case against bruisers (regardless of what class you are.)

And the current health paradigm allows the item to essentially self-nerf itself when other elements of the game are strong (burst casters).

3. It is a mush-rush first item for a carry?

Kind of.

Again, this boils down to - How much damage is your support adding to your combo? In a Leona lane, for example, you'd be hard pressed to argue that their HP pool is actually 1200 - or how effective your autoattacks are.

4. The active adds more burst than the previous incarnation.

Potentially but it's generally weaker than the previous active - and that's why it rolled out - it was viewed as net neutral in most contexts.

150 + 0.5 TAD on an item with 45 AD roughly breaks even with the previous active at 1466 health - which is an HP threshold that only tanks/bruisers break early.

But the item is clearly overpowered on live and ruining the game experience!

Most likely. However, I'm more concerned with whether the item feels counterable at this stage. Rest assured though, we're not going to wait on the next patch to fix it. We knew going out that the item could have come out pretty crazy - and watching it over the weekend - it has been pretty crazy at is.

So we'll be hotfixing this as soon as we're comfortable with the server situation (Along with some other bugs.)
ok... so youve said what we basically already knew... now tell us what the plans for this item are, whether youre going to revert it back to the old BoRK, change it into a new item, make it costly, or just nerf the base stats. yeah you guys messed up with this, but i feel that if you just make it so that it cant be bought at the ten min mark with mediocre farm and some dragon control, then it should be ok and will stop adc's from rushing it over and over again. also you need to look at the items it builds out of, the item is good but only BoRK is good, daggers are terrible alone, even stacking them doesnt do much, and the cutlass is pretty mediocre also. idk maybe its just me but you should have kept it with the pickaxe and just kept the base life steal and ad ratios, thus making it more cost effective because you added daggers onto it and nerfing the insane sustain it gives some champs (udyr, fiora, irelia, jax)


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Fisherman Fizz

Senior Member

03-04-2013

The main thing that seems off to me is the active. It seems insane that the thing does the same %hp damage as DFG, but also heals you for that amount without taking mitigation into account (so it's a HUGE heal) all on top of the giant slow and speed boost. The active just seems like it does everything, I'd much rather have the damage and heal toned down and focus on the slow/speed boost part so that it's still a strong self peel for AD carries.


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