I think BORK is in a good spot, I just think it should cost more...

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Irelia Carries U

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Every tier 3 item is gold efficient - even discounting their actives and their passives.

Almost. There are very few exceptions.



It may have been but the changes in total look something like this:

1. Make Cutlass more accessible - less awful feeling to build.

2. Make BoRK stop competing with your biggest damage items and be seen as something you could "pick up" on the side.

3. Stop some AD assassins from using it as a raw nuke. Yes, I nerfed Zed's damage output with the change.

4. Help some AS-centric fighters who were doing poorly (Irelia / Udyr, etc.) by giving them a decent option.

5. Try to nerf the strategic objective control a bit (note: Failed on this.)

So - essentially I felt like there was significantly more gains to be had from changing the item rather than letting it sit and seem that niche and inacessible - but clearly I overshot.
Xypherous, as an irelia player your post made me really happy that you guys looked into how irelia suffered from the s3 item changes and the whole health stacking scenario.

I really appreciate this, thank you!


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Faptain Teemo

Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrathtoo View Post
If the intent is to mitigate the effectiveness of building hp for a rock-paper-scissors system, while preventing the item from being used against squishy targets then why aren't you decreasing the % on-damage and changing the effect to true damage? Say changing it to ~2% flat, removing the active, and putting moderate attack speed on it. I don't see why an item like this would have life steal at all, it makes it too attractive as a first major item.
It has lifesteal to compete against high HP targets who take long to kill. You're only getting 30 AD from this.


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Breakstar

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Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pryotra View Post
I keep hearing you say that armor is too big a deal, and that health stacking is, while optimal, too good at the moment.

Currently, armor only becomes really effective post ~3000 HP, and to have the equivalent of 100 armor after resists, you need somewhere in the ballpark of 300.

Doesn't that point to something else being too powerful? Or do you think people should stack health till mid-late game, and then hope to get enough armor to matter? I think the only reason that the Magic damage side of this hasn't reared its head is because most AP based characters are burst, so therefore already countered by Health, and therefore the only ones doing ok now are the sustained damage mages that did well late S2/preseason3.
While your math is a little bit [citation needed], it's INTENDED for health being the earlygame choice and armor/MR being a more late midgame choice.


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AlmightyAtheismo

Senior Member

03-04-2013

As far as BoRK goes, what about just increasing the cost of upgrading from Cutlass to Blade? As it stands, Cutlass doesn't feel that great on an AD until its upgraded; if you increase the cost it forces you to decide on giving up some early-mid game dominance. If rushing BoRK isn't as appealing to the ranged side of things, would it still cause problems?

When it comes to RO, I'd just like to see the the old [bugged] calculation back (additive rather than multiplicative).


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God Of Bronze 5

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
At the moment, the changes look like bumping the cost to be equivalent with BT (around a 350 gold cost increase), reducing the damage by 5 and changing the active heal to be post-mitigation.

While this is probably a little much in terms of overnerfing - now that everyone is aware of the power of the item tangentially, it makes it a lot easier to slow-creep it back to a good state without overshooting (which slow-creeping often does.)

In the near future - I'd love to make it an initiative to strip free armor/mr off bruisers and put them on, you know, tanks - where people expect defensive steroids to be. In the interim - people generally still feel that dive bruisers tend to trivialize the game - and I tend to agree with them, which was part of the original reasoning to overshoot on this item.


I really think you are pandering to bad players with good badges. From what I've seen of gold and play, it's a bunch of over-confident loud mouths who don't actually have too much skill. If they did, they'd just pick un borkable champions or champions (bursty) who make the bork useless instead of crying their eyes out for nerfs. Honestly, pathetic.


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quasistellar

Senior Member

03-04-2013

The real problem that started all of this malarky is that attack speed was made to be way too expensive in season 3. It took AD carries way too long to be able to buy enough crit and attack speed to beat the scaling of HP/Locket stacking bruisers and tanks.

BotRK is a knee jerk reaction by Riot to a problem that is way, WAY bigger than just BotRK.


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Noric

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
At the moment, the changes look like bumping the cost to be equivalent with BT (around a 350 gold cost increase), reducing the damage by 5 and changing the active heal to be post-mitigation.
Why would you opt for making the heal post-mitigation instead of lowering the heal% on the item active. In early laning scenarios(the adc vs adc you have mentioned) armor is not as big of as factor as it is against bruisers later in the game. With that change it sounds like you are making the item marginally worse against squishy targets but notably worse against diving bruisers.


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Eydolon

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
So let me talk about Blade of the Ruined King a little - and what kind of led to the state of the item as it is on live.

Let's get this out of the way first - I screwed up here, if only by judging from the reactions and the state of the competitive solo queue. People feel that their AD carry builds are being unduly constrained and they feel the need to buy the item to counter itself. That, in itself, the AD carry versus AD carry case - is a problem.

So, let's get into the crunchy design portions of the thing and talk about it

1. The item is DPS efficient on squishy characters

Kind of.

Fundamentally, any item built off of current health will always look overpowered when it works. This is because the optimal case for current health damage never actually happens in game.

For example, let's say that BoRK breaks even with BT at 1700 health for the target. What this actually means is that BoRK breaks even with BT at 1700 health for the target assuming there is no other damage sources affected the target at all.

Given that almost every character has base damage on their skills and the like - the balance of numbers shifts terribly - For example, if your mage deals 600 AoE damage to the enemy team - BoRK needs to be extra-efficient to still be a valid HP counter at this point.

This is also why the active is as strong as it is - The use of the active nerfs the passive damage of the item.

2. Current % Health Paradigms are flawed - because the AD carry will follow after the burst casters


This is somewhat true to a certain extent - but the goal of a counter-item is to counter niche cases not strengthen already existing cases. The current BoRK for example, excels at self-peel and is especially good in 1v1 case against bruisers (regardless of what class you are.)

And the current health paradigm allows the item to essentially self-nerf itself when other elements of the game are strong (burst casters).

3. It is a mush-rush first item for a carry?

Kind of.

Again, this boils down to - How much damage is your support adding to your combo? In a Leona lane, for example, you'd be hard pressed to argue that their HP pool is actually 1200 - or how effective your autoattacks are.

4. The active adds more burst than the previous incarnation.

Potentially but it's generally weaker than the previous active - and that's why it rolled out - it was viewed as net neutral in most contexts.

150 + 0.5 TAD on an item with 45 AD roughly breaks even with the previous active at 1466 health - which is an HP threshold that only tanks/bruisers break early.

But the item is clearly overpowered on live and ruining the game experience!

Most likely. However, I'm more concerned with whether the item feels counterable at this stage. Rest assured though, we're not going to wait on the next patch to fix it. We knew going out that the item could have come out pretty crazy - and watching it over the weekend - it has been pretty crazy at is.

So we'll be hotfixing this as soon as we're comfortable with the server situation (Along with some other bugs.)

**** THIS. Just when i was starting to use the item!!

Seriously leave that item alone and let us enjoy!


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Zamíel

Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auryiel View Post
Blackfire Torch is the only reason mages are even remotely good on Dominion and TT
There's no reason for this item NOT to exist
Which is funny because I have the most fun with it on Singed and Amumu.



BFT for best AP item evar.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

03-04-2013
12 of 30 Riot Posts

Quote:
Doesn't that point to something else being too powerful? Or do you think people should stack health till mid-late game, and then hope to get enough armor to matter? I think the only reason that the Magic damage side of this hasn't reared its head is because most AP based characters are burst, so therefore already countered by Health, and therefore the only ones doing ok now are the sustained damage mages that did well late S2/preseason3.
Assuming you are fully-countered this is true - However, stacking health is going to win out, regardless of the strength of armor of this moment:

If you have an option that could be countered an an option that has no viable counter then armor has to be overpowered to compete against an option that has no counter.