Can I get some actual factual data on how this new system works, and how it is fair?

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Moogra2u

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Member

02-24-2013

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/4648
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/34950286
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/24463003

The Lolking page isn't actually rating based on division + LP. Notice how the first one has a higher score than the next two but is at a lower division. Anyhow the above posts are correct about the system


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deadheld

Senior Member

02-24-2013

maybe the matchmaking system is working and you are right where you need to be, you did say you have played 100 games in your league/division.
also if they didn't have clamping their would be a bunch of people in the bottom division of leagues because 1 lucky win streak and you could get to the next league.

There is hope though, try duo qeueing with someone in gold so you can get matched with people who have nice and high mmr's and have a chance at a lot of LP gain

also from the sound of it, the more games you play in a division the harder it will be to advance.

this is all speculation


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Endaar

Member

02-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogra2u View Post
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/4648
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/34950286
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/24463003

The Lolking page isn't actually rating based on division + LP. Notice how the first one has a higher score than the next two but is at a lower division. Anyhow the above posts are correct about the system
The first link you put is a Diamond 2 player, who has a higher Lolking score than 2 plat players... this follows exactly with what I said.


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Endaar

Member

02-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadheld View Post
maybe the matchmaking system is working and you are right where you need to be, you did say you have played 100 games in your league/division.
also if they didn't have clamping their would be a bunch of people in the bottom division of leagues because 1 lucky win streak and you could get to the next league.

There is hope though, try duo qeueing with someone in gold so you can get matched with people who have nice and high mmr's and have a chance at a lot of LP gain

also from the sound of it, the more games you play in a division the harder it will be to advance.

this is all speculation
I have already acknowledged that I understand (the best I can, with the little info Riot has released on it) what clamping is, and that I may be clamped. However, that was not what I was asking for, but thank you for your reply.

Also, I have watched a Silver II player duo with a Diamond V and get less LP for winning than the Diamond player. So, duoing with someone higher does not help you get higher LP gains.


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Morbius2271

Senior Member

02-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endaar View Post
I have already acknowledged that I understand (the best I can, with the little info Riot has released on it) what clamping is, and that I may be clamped. However, that was not what I was asking for, but thank you for your reply.

Also, I have watched a Silver II player duo with a Diamond V and get less LP for winning than the Diamond player. So, duoing with someone higher does not help you get higher LP gains.
As was said before, LP gains are based on MMR, not your League or Division. Duoing with someone in a higher League will often produce higher LP gains because they likely, but not necessarily, have a higher MMR.


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Endaar

Member

02-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius2271 View Post
As was said before, LP gains are based on MMR, not your League or Division. Duoing with someone in a higher League will often produce higher LP gains because they likely, but not necessarily, have a higher MMR.
I have duo'd with higher ranked people and it has absolutely no affect on my personal gains.


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Dalek Hal

Senior Member

02-24-2013

Endaar They have answered your question several times already i will caps it for you.

YOUR MMR IS LOWER THAN THE SYSTEM WANTS IT TO BE FOR YOUR CURRENT DIVISION/TIER LEVEL, THUS YOU WILL GAIN LESS LP PER WIN UNTIL YOUR MMR GETS TO WHERE THE SYSTEM WANTS IT TO BE FOR THE DIVISION/TIER YOU ARE IN.

MMR is a hidden value. You can not see it or find it anywhere. Lolking has an approximated value that can give you an idea of where yours is at, however it really doesnt help you to know it. Because all it will tell you is nothing.

Confidence is a statistical term. It is basically referring to how accurate the system feels like your rating is. The more games you play (the larger the sample size) the more accurate the system can be on your MMR, thus the confidence percentage will go up on that number.


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Endaar

Member

02-24-2013

I asked :

Quote:
Next, assuming they exist, how are they calculated/determined? Does anybody actually have facts or numbers for these things?
You answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalek Hal View Post

YOUR MMR IS LOWER THAN THE SYSTEM WANTS IT TO BE FOR YOUR CURRENT DIVISION/TIER LEVEL, THUS YOU WILL GAIN LESS LP PER WIN UNTIL YOUR MMR GETS TO WHERE THE SYSTEM WANTS IT TO BE FOR THE DIVISION/TIER YOU ARE IN.
This is not an answer to the question I asked.

Also, this statement alone makes no logical sense. If my MMR is low for my division, wouldn't I get MORE LP for wins, than for losses, since I would be matching with people higher than me? It would make sense if my MMR was too high, and therefore since I'm playing lower rated people, I get lower gains, but then it would just boil down to 'why am I only getting matched with lower players.' If that were the case, where is the switch I can flip so I get matched with higher people and only have to win 3 games in a row to get to 100LP? (this is more of a joke than anything, we are just speculating here, afterall)

Quote:
Lolking has an approximated value that can give you an idea of where yours is at, however it really doesnt help you to know it. Because all it will tell you is nothing.
Lolking does not have anything representing MMR, this has been discussed.

Thank you for your reply, even though it was in all caps, but it was not what I am looking for.


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cauliflower

Senior Member

02-24-2013

[QUOTE=Endaar;34960312]I have had more than one 7 game win streak, usually takes me up about 50 LP total.


This whole system was setup to make us feel like our advancements are more meaningful. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if 7 wins in a row takes you up 50 LP, isn't this exactly the opposite effect riot wanted?


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Hubbards

Junior Member

02-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endaar View Post
Let's get started with the facts that I know:
__________________________________________________ ______________________
I am in Silver Division 1

I just recently got the green tag for being in this division/league for 100 games. However, playing more games has not affected my LP gains or losses.

I have monitored my win rate throughout these 100 games and it has been steady bouncing between 53 and 55% win rate.

I have conversed with other players in the same EXACT league/division who get significantly higher LP gains for wins, and significantly lower LP gains for losses.

I have conversed with other players in the same EXACT league/division who have won 3 or 4 games in a row and rise from 0 LP straight to 100.

I have had more than one 7 game win streak, usually takes me up about 50 LP total.

__________________________________________________ ______________________


So this will probably come across as simply another whiny thread, but I'm actually looking for some facts or numbers on how things are calculated in this new league system. I have been browsing for weeks since its implementation seeing many similar complaints and the only replies I ever see are "mmr" and "hidden elo" and stuff like that.

Firstly, I'd like to ask the question that if something such as MMR or Hidden Elo actually exists and is what really determines your ranking, why even have the new system at all? AKA, why ditch ELO for... Hidden Elo? All that does is look really shady/stupid to me that I can't actually monitor my own or other people's places in the ranking system.

Next, assuming they exist, how are they calculated/determined? Does anybody actually have facts or numbers for these things? Has riot released any information on them other than that they exist? It's really hard to not be skeptical of the legitimacy of this new system when the real numbers are hidden...

I would also like to say that I have heard the response "the new system thinks that X person should be higher, that is why they get better gains." If this were true... think about that for a second. How is that fair? So what some person is deemed to be higher by all these new hidden numbers that they only have to win 3 or 4 games in a row to go from 0 LP to promo series with no dropoff/scaling in LP gains? (fact- see above[conversed with friends in same exact league/division]) Realistically, if they are 'better', wouldn't they have placed into a better league in the first place, OR rise naturally through competition and a not-broken system? I simply cannot wrap my head around this, why some people are handicapped and others appear to have uncapped gains.


Any actual facts or logical discussion is welcomed in my thread.

To your first question: Riot replaced an open elo system with a division system so people felt like they were progressing and to avoid direct elo comparisons that always arose.
To your second question: Riot will probably never release the exact calculations or numbers.
To your last comment: Riot has no incentive to make a broken, unfair system. It will have bugs and glitches but eventually you will settle at the place you belong.