Why is Ryze always <50%?

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67chrome

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Well, Vayne has pretty atrocious win rates according to sites like LoL King as well, and she's generally considered a solid pick.


If I had to limit the factors of why Ryze looses but is still a solid champion, it generally comes down to 2 factors:

1: Ryze is a late-game champion, which means his team actually needs to survive to late game for him to have a noteworthy impact on who wins and who looses. The reality here is that several games don't have much of a late game phase, so late game champions don't have much time to shine. Most of my games I can only finish 2 major items and boots before it's over, with the money to make a 3rd major item when I'm either destroying the enemy Nexus or watching my own getting owned. And from watching a lot of streams and championship games that seems pretty standard - at least, unless Froggen is dragging it out.

2: AP Carries generally have an ultimate with the exclusive purpose of winning team-fights, generally through the application of widespread AoE damage with a possible debilitating CC effect applied to it. Annie, Zyra, Anivia, Orianna, Morgana, Gragas, a wide range of mages win team fights with their ultimate. Obviously Ryze does get some solid AoE damage in with his ultimate and his CC is pretty solid, but Ryze doesn't have quite the same impact on fights. Other mages lacking in CC ultimates (such as Lux and Karthus) tend to have incredible range on their ultimates, and more widespread CC on basic skills. And from looking at win rates for various champions, what seems to be the most important factor in winning is how potent champions can be when they don't have a lot of items, rather than how potent they can be when they get items - which makes sense, as the capability of turning around a loosing game is going to have a much better impact on win rates than obliterating your opponents when you're already winning.

If you look at win rates, most champions with really high ones have a strong early game and/or a lot of team-wide utility.


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ofart

Senior Member

02-27-2013

Reading this thread, I decided to try Karthus on my friend's account since I lack proper runes. First of all, unlike Ryze, his farm is insanely efficient with defile and the AoE from the long-ranged Lay Waste. I was able to get an RoA @ ~15 min.

Secondly, even though he can't 1vs1 Ryze, the amount of overall damage he imparts on the enemy team seems higher and the Zhonya's active makes it harder for them to focus you. Although, the best part is that focusing you won't stop the damage and the time you have after dying is pretty much as long as the teamfight lasts. If they run, they become uncoordinated so they have no good way of dealing with it. Plus, the ultimate pushes any advantage to the max since the other team basically can't retreat when low. I actually looked it up to see if my impression was correct and Karthus indeed dishes out more damage in a game than Ryze. According to LoLKing.net, Karthus averages 147,871 while Ryze is at 108,992. The average for a champion is 103,658.

Anyway, Karthus is a good change of pace as he's a completely different style to Ryze. He's also more difficult in some ways because you're not as tanky so you need to position yourself more carefully despite the higher range. Plus, you have skill-shots like Wall of Pain (which btw is amazing if it lands on 2-3 players) or Lay Waste. Moreover he lacks the precision knife approach of Ryze in being able to completely stop a target like an ADC and burst him down to smithereens. It's interesting to see the other side of the coin.


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ofart

Senior Member

02-27-2013

Just noticed that there are actually other threads asking if he's OP. I guess it's always in the eye of the beholder. Although, he's clearly not bad and most tier lists do still place him in tier 2. Individually, he's probably the strongest mage with a full build (assuming he can get in range) but with far less utility since this isn't a 1vs1 game.


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Kreshel

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Senior Member

02-28-2013

why you ask just for Ryze? You realize there are many champions that don't pass 50%


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ofart

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Numerous champions don't reach 50% but I'm not particularly surprised when it happens to the likes of Heimerdinger and Karma. On the other hand, I have a lot of experience with Ryze and that little tidbit came unexpected.


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kavinh the third

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Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockforce View Post
Ryze is probably the strongest mage after he gets itemization. But, he does not get to that point except in late game or if he is fed early.
weaker in season 3 cause it's so easy to shred armor and ryze never stacks hp cause there's no good hp/mana item that's got good synergy aside from the occasional ROA and maybe a veil.


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ofart

Senior Member

03-03-2013

You could go double RoA no? Although, it does mean you delay Glacial Shroud & Negatron or the game will be over before you make use of most of it. Anyway, I guess with the new Blade of the Ruined King, maybe it's slightly better that Ryze doesn't have a ton of health.


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ofart

Senior Member

03-08-2013

I just ran into Gankplank mid and got destroyed due to his zoning and harass. I am completely at a loss how to even farm vs Gangplank. Even when I did get some gold, he had Warmogs and basically laughed at any of my attempts to damage him.

Looking for answers, I found a great post about countering Ryze:

"As far as counters, Ryze has three weaknesses: his reliance on farm, his lack of escapes, and his reliance on skills. So pick champions with long range (Urgot, Xerath, ADs), champs with hard CC/stuns (Annie, Anivia, Brand), and champs that push hard and force Ryze to last hit under his turret (Cass, Malz, Galio)."


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agbudar

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ofart View Post
So I've been looking at the stats for champions in various patches on LoLMatches (filtered to ranked 5vs5) and Ryze seems to be perpetually <50% everywhere I check. I even went to LoLking and filtered only for Platinum players and the same result occurs although he's almost there lately.

I like to play Ryze and he seems fairly good so what's causing these mediocre results? Is it just that he can't push a wave without his ultimate or his short-range single target focus? Could it be that he's misplayed even at high levels (he's only played ~11%) or does the early game hurt him too much so that he rarely gets to his full potential kind of like Nasus?

I'm curious what much better players than I think about this. Thanks!

well 50 % winrate is quite obvious to me

half the people suck
the other half carries the game as we all go to know him


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ofart

Senior Member

03-08-2013

I was considering ditching 10% CDR in Masteries to go into the Defensive tree and started looking through patch notes for other Ryze items. Apparently, Frozen Heart and Banshee's Veil used to give him 200 more mana. I really thought this would mean much higher winrates but a las, I still can't find evidence for it. Maybe in the end, the sample size is almost always too small for any of this to matter given the insane number of team compositions and situations. Although, Nasus's buffs do seem to show up statistically lately.


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