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Live Design - PBE context thread for 2/15/2013

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ArkofIce

Member

02-16-2013

Is making Warmogs a flat HP + HP per level scaling a possibility to prevent early abuse but not remove it's power late game?

Example:

460 HP + 30 HP Per Level


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A Rabid Teemo

Senior Member

02-16-2013

Quote:
hashinshin:
BotRK is the worst change I've ever seen.

Bluntly put, this will be your star wars episode 1 if you're allowed to direct this movie.

You're effectively saying: Hey ADCs (who are already the counter to tanks) do you want to counter both armor, HP, and squishies all in one item while being ridiculously kitey and hard to pin down with the added bonus of building out of low tier easy to obtain items and having ludicrously big lane sustain and in combat sustain? Also, it synergizes with itself perfectly and won't even require a second item to make it work good!

Build armor, get out sustained. Build HP, get shred by % health damage. Try to out burst, get kited and out burst yourself. Try to harass, whoops it's got sustain too. Build a bigger item, whoops BotRK is cheaper.

This item looks like the end result of: Hey what if we made ranged carries even better than they were in season 2?

And why? Were people not playing ADCs? The only time in the last 2 years ADCs havn't been picked in tournaments was when Urgot was a thing. Now we're right back to 1/5 of every team being an ADC. Is that being threatened? Are people throwing the ADC off their team? Maybe ADCs havn't been having as big an impact, let me go play a game an- no wait they are still the biggest impact on a team. Better buff BotRK so ADCs are godmode again! Not to mention that you're tearing Udyr's favorite item in to a different direction so ADCs can have it. BT wasn't enough, ADCs need to have an alternative to BT when they get bored I guess.

well if you don't want ADCs too have too much laning power then don't lane against them? seems pretty simple to me. 90% of the time ADCs are in lane against each other so I don't see the problem


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JesterTheJoker

Senior Member

02-16-2013

Look.. I'm a big fan of Taric as a champ, but its not because he is too strong. Quite the opposite in fact. I feel you've made supports as a whole so weak that he is simply one of the last supports that can effect a fight in lane without using an ult where as you've smashed pretty much every other true support into basically just being a sustain, ward, ult machine... The other support champs needs buffs, taric doesn't need nerfs. You're making the support role close to useless.

In fact, perhaps you should consider just turing SR into a 4v4 map, and just have a bot run around placing wards...


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IS181b32fa0113717aa0148

Senior Member

02-16-2013

Why did you kill nidalee?
edit:And wtf is wrong with my summoner name


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Faptain Teemo

Member

02-16-2013

Quote:
Malurth:
Very glad to see BotRK move to being an aspd item. Always felt very awkward in the past; traditionally all repeated on-hit items have come with an aspd boost so you could further make use of it. Especially when this was touted to semi-replace Madred's, which was a sort of one-stop-shop autoattack item, whereas BotRK required an additional aspd item to help it along. I also find the specific changes very interagreeesting; these changes seem directed at improving its viability on ADCs, though I find it's aspd boost + no crit + the "lifesteal" not stealing off crit makes it synergize poorly with crit. So, I don't really know what to think about that. Just interesting. Might be a really good item on Quinn now, actually. As an aside, I still feel strongly that the item would be far more satisfying if it scaled off max instead of current HP (Liandry's too, but moreso for BotRK).

I agree and disagree with parts of this. The attack speed is great and actually makes the item slot efficient since now we can buy LW instead of buying attack speed to properly synergize with it.

As Xyp said, it now competes with other attack speed items. PD enhances crit chance, shiv brings poke/pushing power with minor crit chance, zephyr gives the best move speed and kiting potential with tenacity, tri force has a bit of everything, and now BotRK offers sustain specifically against high hp targets. You buy the attack speed item(s) that work well with the rest of your buys. Having BotRK scale with crit would be too much, honestly. You have to decide whether you want burst, survivability or sustain with the other items.

A glass cannon ADC/APC would still out-DPS someone who relies on BotRK as their main damage tool due to having burst, but on the other hand any bruiser who buys health and relies on their 300+ base damage spells can't just easily walk over the squishy carries early and mid game. It's still a matter of out-DPSing the other, but most bruisers have a gap closer or cc to hold you in place while they poop on you.

I can't say I see where hashinshin is coming from.. Olaf and Xin can still rip a squishy BotRK-wielder apart if they have the faster timing. BotRK's active may slow bruisers down, but it doesn't stop them from launching their assault.


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Teamslash

Senior Member

02-16-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
The item is best used against bruisers. I'm not particularly worried about it *who* uses it to kill bruisers - only that bruisers have someone to fear.

We're definitely aiming for the rest of the statistics to synergize slightly better with heavy autoattackers. Granted there are some attack speed centric bruisers in the lot but on the whole, the statistics push it to be slightly better for ranged carries.

However, the fun of PBE is that actual games pretty much outweighs any amount of coherent theorycraft arguments I could do.
So now that BoRK + Hurricane* has been nerfed into oblivion, what's makes BoRK + ???? a more viable choice than say, BT + Shiv/PD? Really now? Losing AD on an auto-attacker item makes perfect sense to me. When it comes to late game item slots, a carry will want burst mitigation more than sustain (already have enough).

If you really want to make it an AS item, dump the AD and throw % MS on it. Otherwise crit is just too darn appealing to ignore on a relevant carry (BoRK is better if one forsakes crit, BUT WHO WOULD DO THAT ?)

* IE Sacrifice crit chance in order to have BoRK applied on three targets in most teamfights along with whatever on-hit effects the champion might have (Urgot, Varus, Kog'maw, etc). Single-target carries care more about crit, and generally don't need the active with adequate peel (If they do need it, it's because their low damage and/or low life-stolen caused a lost teamfight).

Taric changes: While I agree that Taric is in too good of a spot atm, I'm concerned that the passive change will over-nerf his mana sustain in mid-game while he is prioritizing his low income on armor to help the passive on W.


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

02-16-2013

I don't get the massive amount of lifesteal on BoRK now. Isn't this going to give AD carries amounts of lifesteal that surpass what it used to be? BT used to have 25% lifesteal, which still has to go through mitigation. Isn't this just WAY too much lifesteal for an item?


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xXCrazyBarksXx

Senior Member

02-16-2013

nerfing warmogs has nerfed mundo even more now


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

02-16-2013

Quote:
xXCrazyBarksXx:
nerfing warmogs has nerfed mundo even more now

Funny, I didn't even build warmogs on mundo pre-nerf.


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Teamslash

Senior Member

02-16-2013

Quote:
ParagonShepard:
Another thing about Bortk is that you're killing its usage on champions that don't want attackspeed (Zed, Lee Sin). Aren't you worried about it being too specialized?

I tend to find these champions like Ravenous Hydra more, a lot more.

Quote:
rathy Aro:
I don't get the massive amount of lifesteal on BoRK now. Isn't this going to give AD carries amounts of lifesteal that surpass what it used to be? BT used to have 25% lifesteal, which still has to go through mitigation. Isn't this just WAY too much lifesteal for an item?
I don't think the passive scales with crit.

Edit: BoRK could also be adjusted by removing the LS components. That way the itemization can be adjusted to compete less with BT and more with AS/penetration items (eg PD/LW).