Spirit of the Elder Lizard

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RyuPhalian

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Am I the only one who considered this the most underwhelming of the 3 Spirit Stone paths? Even before the Wraith Spirit Stone was buffed I felt that it was an item struggling to find its place. Golem was made for Tanks, Wraith was for Mages, but Lizard had the challenge of competing with Wiggles Lantern for Off-Tanks and Assassins. It feels like the only reason any AD focused jungler would consider going with Spirit of the Elder Lizard is because of the mana from Spirit Stone. The DoT from Elder Lizard is from 15-66 over 3 seconds, even before people realized how powerful Wumong's Armor was that was very weak. Not to mention that the DoT is only procked on Auto-Attacks so this hurts AD Casters even more.

Personally I feel that simply building Brutaliser is a more profitable rout than finishing Spirit of the Elder Lizard. It costs less, gives 10% cooldown, may give only 25 AD compared to Lizard's 50 AD but that +10 Armor Pen not only helps Auto-Attacks but also spells which deal physical damage.

Now I am not saying I hate Spirit of the Elder Lizard, I think it was a decent idea but poorly implemented. I really want to really consider using this item on more than just Kha'Zix, I want to consider it on Xin Zhao and Nocturn too. Riot, please look into this item before giving even more buffs to Wraith.


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Yuan Shikai

Senior Member

02-07-2013

It is AMAZING, far more versatile than Wriggle's and should be built on EVERY not auto attack ad jungler.

Also, it does NOT proc only on auto attacks, it procs on EVERY non-DoT-ability too, even AoE-abilities.

Nocturne is a bad example cause they are beyond the most aut attack reliant junglers, they are specifically one of the VERY FEW AND SCARCE junglers on which Wriggle's is actually the better choice, every champ that has an at leats semi spammable aoe ability like Hecarim's Q, Vi's E or Kayle's E, the Lizard Spirit is VASTLY better.


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RyuPhalian

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuan Shikai View Post
It is AMAZING, far more versatile than Wriggle's and should be built on EVERY not auto attack ad jungler.

Also, it does NOT proc only on auto attacks, it procs on EVERY non-DoT-ability too, even AoE-abilities.

Nocturne is a bad example cause they are beyond the most aut attack reliant junglers, they are specifically one of the VERY FEW AND SCARCE junglers on which Wriggle's is actually the better choice, every champ that has an at leats semi spammable aoe ability like Hecarim's Q, Vi's E or Kayle's E, the Lizard Spirit is VASTLY better.
Ok, so I was wrong when it procks, that doesn't change that it's core feature, the DoT, isn't even noticeable. If the enemy builds health (which in this current Meta is EVERY GAME) the healing from Wumogs Armor would be able to counter it. I mean if the DoT has some kind of scaling or applied Grievous Wounds it would be a different story but right now this is something worth building after Tier 2 Boots and about 2 Tier 3 items like Black Cleaver.


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BroKenTerRa

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Junior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuPhalian View Post
Ok, so I was wrong when it procks, that doesn't change that it's core feature, the DoT, isn't even noticeable. If the enemy builds health (which in this current Meta is EVERY GAME) the healing from Wumogs Armor would be able to counter it. I mean if the DoT has some kind of scaling or applied Grievous Wounds it would be a different story but right now this is something worth building after Tier 2 Boots and about 2 Tier 3 items like Black Cleaver.
Dude... It's true damage.

You're ignoring a lot of the core features. Imagine that true damage on Skarner and Hecarim. The next several jungle games you play, do Spirit Stone->Boots->Spirit of the Elder Lizard->Iceborne Gauntlet.

If you're still complaining about it being lackluster, then I don't know what to tell you other than you're a slow ass farmer.


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RyuPhalian

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroKenTerRa View Post
Dude... It's true damage.

You're ignoring a lot of the core features. Imagine that true damage on Skarner and Hecarim. The next several jungle games you play, do Spirit Stone->Boots->Spirit of the Elder Lizard->Iceborne Gauntlet.

If you're still complaining about it being lackluster, then I don't know what to tell you other than you're a slow ass farmer.
Well seeing as Skarner makes a better tank than damage dealer I prefer Golem and I don't own Hecarim. Kha'Zix is the only jungler I have used recently who builds into Elder Lizard. AD Casters can utilize Elder Lizard from its AD and Mana regen but since most AD Casters are also Assassins, things like Armor Pen seem to work better with their more burst oriented damage. That is why I mentioned Brutiliser, it is cheap but also helps increase the damage of your abilities with the Armor Pen.


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67chrome

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuPhalian View Post
The DoT from Elder Lizard is from 15-66 over 3 seconds, even before people realized how powerful Wumong's Armor was that was very weak. Not to mention that the DoT is only procked on Auto-Attacks so this hurts AD Casters even more.
Ok, a few points:

1: The DoT procs on various abilities, not just auto-attacks.

2: If you can't fit 1 auto-attack in once every 3 seconds on a champion that scales the potency of their abilities with attributes that also scale the potency of their auto-attacks, ...the problem isn't the way the debuff is applied. Applying on-hit effects through debuffs is a mechanic that allows any champion to do exactly the same thing with an effect regardless of how much or how little they utilize auto-attacks, because it doesn't scale off of attack speed at all. Which is as true for AD Carries as it is for AD Casters. And seriously, not utilizing auto-attacks as a mage is sad enough, if you play an AD scaling champion you have no excuse.


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jmlinden7

Senior Member

02-07-2013

The dot isn't what makes it strong, it's cost efficient just for the regen, AD, and CDR. It's a decent item on ad caster junglers, but most people don't play ad casters in the jungle. The dot itself does about as much damage as a sunfire cape in most cases.


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Keitterman

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuan Shikai View Post
It is AMAZING, far more versatile than Wriggle's and should be built on EVERY not auto attack ad jungler.

Also, it does NOT proc only on auto attacks, it procs on EVERY non-DoT-ability too, even AoE-abilities.

Nocturne is a bad example cause they are beyond the most aut attack reliant junglers, they are specifically one of the VERY FEW AND SCARCE junglers on which Wriggle's is actually the better choice, every champ that has an at leats semi spammable aoe ability like Hecarim's Q, Vi's E or Kayle's E, the Lizard Spirit is VASTLY better.
I agree with Yuan, it is amazing, and that true damage stacks up faster than you think. I use it on Leona when i jungle with her (yeah i know, newb alert, but it's actully effective if done right, i win more than i lose as that build, i'm getting off the subject...)

Elder lizard stone is great, I'd love to see something like that on TT so ad junglers have a non-lantern option, but I do understand that it couldn't be from a spirit stone because the added creep dmg, but something like it would be nice...


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HeWhoSpectates

Senior Member

02-08-2013

The item is cost effective without the passives.

You are paying roughly 700g for 10% cdr, 14 h/5, 7 m/5, which is worth it imho.

It's very good on Hecarim and Vi.


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RyuPhalian

Senior Member

02-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeWhoSpectates View Post
The item is cost effective without the passives.

You are paying roughly 700g for 10% cdr, 14 h/5, 7 m/5, which is worth it imho.

It's very good on Hecarim and Vi.
Well what caused me to think of this is that Spirit of the Wraith got a 700 gold price drop and to me that one was already decent (in the PBE it even has a 10% cooldown reduction for Smite). For Spirit of the Elder Lizard you're paying 1600 gold for the DoT, 50 AD, and 10% cooldown. Now I don't know about you but I rarely ever notice that DoT helping. It's just that it feels like the +10 Armor pen from Brutaliser has more of an impact on my damage output early game.

Now remember that the only jungler I have who can utilize this item is Kha'Zix (who I will admit fun to play and makes you feel like a freak'n Xenomorph hunting for their next victim) so maybe the DoT just isn't as effective with his more burst damage. So yes, it could be that it just feels weak on some champs and fantastic on more sustained damage dealers like Hecarim. Also, before you pounce on me saying I need to get Hecarim or Vi and try them out, I don't have the IP to get any new champs and I am saving my RP for Warring Kingdoms Xin Zhou who I is one of my best junglers atm. But it just kind of bugs me that even with great sustained damage Elder Lizard (at least on paper) seems to be the weakest of the 3 seeing that Golem gives Health and Tenacity (health being the meta defence), and that Wraith gives AP and Spell Vamp while being 600 gold cheaper. But then again, to quote Ben Croshaw "But paper is a flimsy thing that goes see through when you rub grease on it".


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