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Dodge penalty = reward idiots, penalize people who care

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V0idGravity

Senior Member

02-08-2013

Riot doesn't care cuz this is the welcome sign

610382


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ROCKIE FRESH

Junior Member

02-08-2013

I was terrible at this game when I first started playing and look most derps I rushed into ranked. Ended up getting a terrible ELO of about 1100. Stopped playing ranked for sometime and just hopped back on now that Im pretty good at the game. I play with some pretty damn good people who finished in gold and silver last year so they helped me out a lot, which is how I got better. When season 3 began I realized I was tier 3 of bronze. Figured I could get out easily. Well after I couple games I go to look at my match history and notice something interesting. To make it short, I win, Lose, Win, Lose, Win Lose. I was up for promotion 3 times in one night and noticed that every promotion game i played, A fight broke out over a role in every champ select. So I was getting paired with just straight scrubs who raged over not being able to play their favorite champion. So, not only was I being set up to win, lose, win, lose, etc. But I was being set up to lose my promotion games. . . From their I ended up playing one last game today, raging, and coming to the conclusion that once youre in bronze, you never leave bronze. Ever. Simple as that. Just thought Id share my story. #Bronze4Lyfe


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N for Nigeria

Junior Member

02-09-2013

BUMP.

There is the 30 minute penalty already, if you are going to make us lose LP then at least put it back down to 5 minutes.


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sepetaiya

Senior Member

02-10-2013

bump for justice


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RiotKiddington

Platform Engineer

02-10-2013

Your thread covered many topics, let’s just discuss about queue dodge for the sake of time. Please excuse my poor English

Queue dodging is a complex problem that involves much deliberation and consideration. We have a queue dodge system with a queue dodge penalty because we need to strike a balance between the need of players who wish to play the game and those who want to dodge the game (of any reason). Why Riot not just have a “free queue dodge” system of some form? The answer to this question is simple because it is too prone to abuse.

There is a segment of our player base that loves to queue dodge for the sake of dodging. These players would dodge a game with or without any reason. Perhaps they did it because they do not understand the implications of their actions, or perhaps they have alternative motives. We need the penalty to prevent (some) players from dodge the games repeatedly.

Then there is another segment of our player base that will queue dodge for competitive reasons. Let’s take current ARAM game mode as an example, the ARAM mode supposed to be all random in champion selection, and by logical extension of ARAM design, there should never be any “troll pick” or “mid or feed”. In reality: ARAM games currently have one of the highest queue dodge rate. Based on this information, have you considered why that is the case? Were these queue dodgers indifferent about their games? Or they cared too much about their games, and they will, at any instance of perceived disadvantage dodge the queue? One can’t deny there is a segment of our player base that would utilize the dodge system to enhance their competitive advantage if no strong discouragement exists. We need the queue dodge penalty to keep this group of players in check.

One group of players we also need to take into consideration are those who want to play the game. There are times when I have a perfect team and the other side queue dodged (for whatever reasons), and this really sucks for me. Now if this happens 7 times in a row, it would really make me feel bad. This is not without history, we have seen last year when the Dominion queue dodge system failed to enforce queue penalty for months, the consequences of that bug were devastating. It will take 7-8 tries before a player can successfully launch a game. Once we fixed the dodge penalty bug, the number of tries needed to launch a game dropped dramatically.

There are many other scenarios that we can discuss in the future (regarding League Points). We designed the dodge penalty after carefully analyze the data we have gathered from years of observation. The penalty system is designed to be strong enough to discourage repeat queue dodging but it is weak enough to allow occasional queue dodge. In the end, it is all about an act of balance to improve overall player experience.


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RiotKiddington

Platform Engineer

02-10-2013

Quote:
sepetaiya:
bump for justice


I found your statement humorous in an ironic way. May the Tribunal Judges have mercy on you, because they know about justice too well.


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Karn Bishop

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
RiotKiddington:
Your thread covered many topics, let’s just discuss about queue dodge for the sake of time. Please excuse my poor English

Queue dodging is a complex problem that involves much deliberation and consideration. We have a queue dodge system with a queue dodge penalty because we need to strike a balance between the need of players who wish to play the game and those who want to dodge the game (of any reason). Why Riot not just have a “free queue dodge” system of some form? The answer to this question is simple because it is too prone to abuse.

There is a segment of our player base that loves to queue dodge for the sake of dodging. These players would dodge a game with or without any reason. Perhaps they did it because they do not understand the implications of their actions, or perhaps they have alternative motives. We need the penalty to prevent (some) players from dodge the games repeatedly.

Then there is another segment of our player base that will queue dodge for competitive reasons. Let’s take current ARAM game mode as an example, the ARAM mode supposed to be all random in champion selection, and by logical extension of ARAM design, there should never be any “troll pick” or “mid or feed”. In reality: ARAM games currently have one of the highest queue dodge rate. Based on this information, have you considered why that is the case? Were these queue dodgers indifferent about their games? Or they cared too much about their games, and they will, at any instance of perceived disadvantage dodge the queue? One can’t deny there is a segment of our player base that would utilize the dodge system to enhance their competitive advantage if no strong discouragement exists. We need the queue dodge penalty to keep this group of players in check.

One group of players we also need to take into consideration are those who want to play the game. There are times when I have a perfect team and the other side queue dodged (for whatever reasons), and this really sucks for me. Now if this happens 7 times in a row, it would really make me feel bad. This is not without history, we have seen last year when the Dominion queue dodge system failed to enforce queue penalty for months, the consequences of that bug were devastating. It will take 7-8 tries before a player can successfully launch a game. Once we fixed the dodge penalty bug, the number of tries needed to launch the game dropped dramatically.

There are many other scenarios that we can discuss in the future (regarding League Points). We designed the dodge penalty after carefully analyze the data we have gathered from years of observation. The penalty system is designed to be strong enough to discourage repeat queue dodging but it is weak enough to allow occasional queue dodge. In the end, it is all about an act of balance to improve overall player experience.


Shrugs, I'm fine with forcing 3 other people to lose lp because i don't want to lose 3/10 lp just to give a troll what he wants but is it fair to the people who had to deal with the troll all match? the 8 other people?


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Phyrexia

Senior Member

02-10-2013

The only thing I really object to is dodge during promotional series = Automatic D/Q. You say you have a lenient enough system but this seems incredibly harsh.


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Gray the Grayte

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
RiotKiddington:

Queue dodging is a complex problem that involves much deliberation and consideration. We have a queue dodge system with a queue dodge penalty because we need to strike a balance between the need of players who wish to play the game and those who want to dodge the game (of any reason)....

Let’s take current ARAM game mode as an example....

The penalty system is designed to be strong enough to discourage repeat queue dodging but it is weak enough to allow occasional queue dodge...


Having played significant amount of solo queue ranked games in all 3 seasons I can say that the overall player experience was the best in that period when dodging didn't cost ELO but had hefty time penalties (i.e. end of Season 2 and pre-season 3).

It meant you always had one final recourse available to you if it was clear there were trolls in the lobby. I mean I would happily not play ranked again for the rest of the night rather than having to be stuck with one of these guys and regret hitting the Queue button in the first place.

There are two main types of trolls.
1) People that blackmail the reason of their team into getting what they want. Reintroducing penalty has given more power to these guys as they know noone wants to hit the dodge button.
2) People that are unhappy because they didn't get what they wanted or don't want to play because their team are arguing and now want to dodge. Previously a lot of these sort of people could just dodge gracefully but now with the penalty some of them take the option to troll instead. If cursing and threatening to go afk doesn't cause a dodge they do things like random their hero with Revive etc.

By reintroducing the ELO penalty the amount of toxicity I see in hero select has gone through the roof. Everyone is so stressed and you feel trapped and powerless when the roll of the dice goes against you in terms of who your teammates are. Particularly you are utterly screwed if you get one of these guys in your promotion series that you can see is going to cause a loss yet you can't dodge or you cancel your series and lose like 40 LP.

As for your ARAM example there is only one reason people dodge constantly in ARAM and that is it has no matchmaking system. That's it period. No matchmaking system means there is no penalty AT ALL (time, elo, whatever) associated with dodging so human nature takes over and they keep rejoining games until they get a set up they are happy with. Introduce matchmaking along with the standard time penalties for dodging and you will see dodge levels immediately drop to Blind Pick levels or lower.

In summary hefty time penalties do the trick just fine. Having an ELO/LP penalty just causes rage and degrades the player experience dramatically as evidenced by the numerous threads complaining about it.


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Wargasmic

Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Karn Bishop:
Shrugs, I'm fine with forcing 3 other people to lose lp because i don't want to lose 3/10 lp just to give a troll what he wants but is it fair to the people who had to deal with the troll all match? the 8 other people?

As annoying as trolls are, it should be pretty easy to work around them. If a troll per say is first pick and picks something you called, instead of getting mad and egging him on, just let him do it and pick something else. Yes, I get it's frustrating, but making it worse obviously is the bad thing to do.