League system queue dodge penalties

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TheMishthra

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yegg View Post
* Dodging in ranked solo if you've dodged recently will trigger a 30 minute lockout and will deduct 10 LP.
* Dodging in ranked teams if you've dodged recently will trigger a 60 minute lockout and will still deduct 10 LP from the team.
Please for the love of bob, HOW LONG IS RECENTLY? Many times I've dodged 4-5 hours previously, and sill get the second tier of wait after my second dodge.


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ShineySides

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by An InnocentKitty View Post
Well how many LPs do you get for a win or a loss? I would honestly rather dodge a game if I knew we were absolutely going to lose (not because of picks or anything, but because of a particularily toxic player on my team)
Heres the thing though. You will have people be able to troll less often. Now people wont dodge the trolls and will just report them. So 1 troll will mess up 1 game, instead of messing up 5-7 lobbies until someone doesnt dodge, and then messes up the game anyway.

AND it will really give people more incentive to report trolls since you are stuck with them.


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chaser676

Senior Member

02-01-2013

I don't agree with this whatsoever


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Mxie

Senior Member

02-01-2013

So what happens when you get, by chance, the guy that just wants to watch the world burn? People that have accounts for no other reason than to troll? I really didn't think this sort of thing happened until a guy at work straight up told me that he has an account just for messing with people.

Other than that, my big issue is that, in a roundabout sort of way, you're positively reinforcing the "top or I feed" guys. A "top or I feed" guy now knows that it's unlikely that someone will dodge, and if the team wants to win, its in their best interest to not risk it. People in solo queue don't know eachother. They don't know if this guy is really going to feed or not. They don't know if he'll complain endlessly about it and make the game a terrible experience, or if the guy was just bluffing. So essentially, people can come to champ select, say "top or I feed," and it's a gamble as to whether or not he actually will.

I'm not saying either system is perfect or completely flawed, but at least with free dodges you had the chance of, when seeing "top or I feed," of just saying "I don't want to deal with this right now," and dodge out with no penalty because avoiding a potentially toxic situation should not be punishable. Obviously you have access to numbers that I don't, but I'd say the community came out for the worse now that a single guy can legitimately hold the team hostage.

In my non-professional opinion, I really just think you need a votekick that requires 4 people to agree. If you get two trolls, it's worth a dodge anyway, and the team can get rid of some guy that's coming in and potentially being a jackass or betting that he can get the team to give him what he wants instead of risking a loss.


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Nores

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMishthra View Post
Please for the love of bob, HOW LONG IS RECENTLY? Many times I've dodged 4-5 hours previously, and sill get the second tier of wait after my second dodge.
I believe 24h is "recently"


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Chaedi

Junior Member

02-01-2013

Why not give the players the opportunity to remove a toxic player during the champion select screen. Do it in the same way as surrending. If all 4 players or 3 of the 4 players if they are part of a duo queue agree that certain behavior is toxic they can vote to remove a certain member of their team in which they receive a 1 minute penalty and the rest of the team is moved back into the queue. The 1 minute penalty will allow it so the team will most likely not be forced to play with the individual again.


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Detahmaio

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yegg View Post
Hey all,

To start this discussion, I’d like to go back in time a bit. Back in June of 2012, we announced a change to the ranked queue dodge penalty here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2228786. It was clarified that the change was somewhat of an experiment and that we'd be making further changes if necessary. At the time, we removed Elo penalties for two reasons:

1. The Elo penalties were undermining the matchmaker and opening up abuse cases that people were very much using.
2. Queue dodging is sometimes a valid defense mechanism against toxic situations, and we didn't want to punish people too harshly for using it.

In many ways this worked out well. Players looking for easy wins could no longer dodge their way down to Elo ratings hundreds or thousands points below their skill level. Other players stuck with true griefers in their lobby could get out of that situation without any permanent penalty. These are all good things.

However, over the last 7 months it became clear that there were three undesirable side effects:

1. Trolls gained more power in champ select.
2. Players were much less willing to work together and became much more focused on what they individually wanted.
3. Some players started using queue dodging to micromanage their Elo gains and would dodge whenever they perceived the matchup to be unfavorable.

The first two above led to an increase in trolling in champ select, which in turns leads to an increase in queue dodging. Combined with the increases from the micromanaging group, it’s now the case that queue dodging is very common in the ranked solo queue.

You might think that I'm crazy based on the first point above. “Trolls gained more power when we removed the Elo penalty?” You're probably also thinking that by increasing the penalty now, we're giving trolls more power because it punishes innocent players who are trying to avoid trolls.

The key is this: most trolls want to win just as much as you do. They might believe they need a certain role to do that, or they might be annoying to interact with, but at the end of the day they generally want to win the games they queue up for. Here's a corollary: most trolls don't want to sit through a 30 minute game rocking Karma/Revive/Promote (or whatever the latest "troll picks" are) just as much as you don't want to be in the game alongside them. What they want when they troll pick is for you to dodge for them, because then they'll get another lobby and they might get the role they want. Think back to the days when there was a 10 Elo penalty for dodging. There was much less troll picking in champ select for one simple reason: it often didn't work. If no one dodges, everyone on the team loses, and no individual wanted to dodge and lose Elo, so everyone was compelled to cooperate more. But with the removal of the Elo penalty, it was almost guaranteed that someone would dodge, and once it was clear that troll picking and/or threatening "X or feed" worked, more players starting doing it.

So here's how the penalties work now that the League System is active:

* Dodging in the ranked solo queue will trigger a 6 minute lockout and will deduct 3 League Points (LP).
* Dodging in ranked solo if you've dodged recently will trigger a 30 minute lockout and will deduct 10 LP.
* Dodging a ranked team game will trigger a 1 minute lockout and will deduct 10 LP from the team.
* Dodging in ranked teams if you've dodged recently will trigger a 60 minute lockout and will still deduct 10 LP from the team.
* Dodging during a Promotion or Division series will cancel the series, so you'll have to get back to 100 LP to start another series (likely just one game away, unless you had already lost a couple series games).

Now that League Points are on the line, there's much more incentive for everyone on the team to work together and try to reach a positive consensus on champions and roles. The number of League Points lost is small enough that it's not a huge setback if a dodge does happen, but it's big enough that players will think twice about dodging just because they don't like the matchup or didn't get their role. Taking away League Points does not tell the matchmaker that you're worse at the game, which means the penalty is no longer opening up abuse cases or leading to unfair matches. We've also greatly shortened the time penalties, and almost completely removed them from ranked team dodges, because it sucks when everyone has to wait around for a teammate's dodge penalty to wear off. In general, our goal here is to reduce the amount of time that it takes you to get a game started by reducing the number of failed lobbies.

As with many changes that we make these days, this is an experiment. We'll be monitoring the effects, both in terms of queue dodge rates and also in terms of the feedback that you all give us on the forums. I'll personally be reading all of the replies in this thread even if I don't have a chance to reply to them.

Deducting LP is giving the trolls more power. Before they use to control your play time by making you dodge or lose ELO. now you lose LP and get a lock out timer so if they decide to troll pick karma with revive/clarity you lose LP either way now


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Elchulus

Senior Member

02-01-2013

I feel so good knowing that there are now situations where I am guaranteed to lose LP.

WP RIOT.


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MeatThrottle

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Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yegg View Post
The key is this: most trolls want to win just as much as you do. They might believe they need a certain role to do that, or they might be annoying to interact with, but at the end of the day they generally want to win the games they queue up for. Here's a corollary: most trolls don't want to sit through a 30 minute game rocking Karma/Revive/Promote (or whatever the latest "troll picks" are) just as much as you don't want to be in the game alongside them. What they want when they troll pick is for you to dodge for them, because then they'll get another lobby and they might get the role they want. Think back to the days when there was a 10 Elo penalty for dodging. There was much less troll picking in champ select for one simple reason: it often didn't work. If no one dodges, everyone on the team loses, and no individual wanted to dodge and lose Elo, so everyone was compelled to cooperate more. But with the removal of the Elo penalty, it was almost guaranteed that someone would dodge, and once it was clear that troll picking and/or threatening "X or feed" worked, more players starting doing it.
I don't know about you but I have played with many people who are not just playing chicken but honestly will go out of their way to ruin a game for everyone. It's a risk you don't want to take.


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Vilacom

Senior Member

02-01-2013

I'm glad its this and not some kind of votekick. I play nasus a lot, i do pretty well with him, its not trolling, i just enjoy playing him and when i get top lane with him I actually do quite well(low elo people dont know how to counter him) but the amount of whining i get whenever I pick him...christ

If people could just votekick me with no penalty then say goodbye to playing a champion that you really enjoy if the people on your team dont like it, cause boom you just got kicked.