League system queue dodge penalties

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

CieloPrimo

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

02-01-2013

I love Riot and just about all they do. When it comes to their ranked system....not so much. I think it's the only thing not handled correctly in this game. There HAS to be a system in place, whether it be being able to vote a player out of champion select (ex:Left 4 Dead style), or a system that identifies said "troll" as mentioned before. A huge thing, that I don't understand why it isn't in the game yet, is being able to queue in ranked at least for the role you are going to play. This would fix just about everything. Trolls would decrease by a huge percentage and I feel like people's rating will be an accurate judge of their skill. A system needs to be created is the point. Telling us to basically deal with the trolls, believe us they want to win too, just play with them and see what happens, is not fixing anything. Now you guys are implementing a brand new ranked system. It is the perfect time to implement a new and efficient way to ensure players don't have to deal with toxic people who will set them back. I love you Riot but you're breaking my heart I expected more ;(


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Wise Squirrel

Senior Member

02-01-2013

They finally lose elo? "In the form of LP"

Thank you

I really began getting annoyed at the 5+ queue dodges in a row...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Nores

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Dodges in rank are pretty ridiculous ( my record was 9 lobbies in a row dodged -thats more than 30 minutes of going trough champ select process and queue and never getting in actual game),

but I honestly dont think adding small LP penalty will help overall situation. trolls still happen (there were when you lost 10 elo per dodge), dodges still happen. Champ select rage still happen

Imho root of the problem is the lack of lane queue (solo/jungle/duo lane) and consequent raging where people are forced to play their suboptimal lane.

Example - I am forced to play lane where I lose 85% of time. I can try to force queue dodge with troll pick and likely get dodge (desired outcome ) or get to play game with troll pick (15-20% chance to win - since from Riot Data that is apparently the win rate for 4v5)

Or I can pick legit and try play this lane ( 15% chance to win anyways). So why would I ever try to play legit in this situation?I have same chance to win , so might as well have fun with troll pick if game starts ,and likely I get dodge from someone or dodge myself (3 LP is not big deal at all)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

roninsm

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Already gotten 2 dodges in a row, and that's with the penalties. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SteelerKing

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Not sure what to think about it yet. I'll keep my up/down vote reserved until tested.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

vish0r

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Will not work as intended.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

An InnocentKitty

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Well how many LPs do you get for a win or a loss? I would honestly rather dodge a game if I knew we were absolutely going to lose (not because of picks or anything, but because of a particularily toxic player on my team)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Seeker0fTruth

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-01-2013

@Yegg: Thanks for explaining the change. 90% of the time, this is going to greatly increase my pleasure in playing ranked and I'm all for that. However, one thing has me concerned. When doing placement series--let's pretend i'm 2-2 in a best of five to move from silver to gold--trolls can use this to put me over a barrel. I'm first pick, but if the troll knows that I'm in this situation he can get me to do whatever he wants because I can't dodge. Any thoughts about this?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

GnomeDigest

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yegg View Post
* Dodging during a Promotion or Division series will cancel the series, so you'll have to get back to 100 LP to start another series (likely just one game away, unless you had already lost a couple series games).
This is the main flaw with your new system and generally your whole new league system entirely.

Under the previous system you argued that overall trolls, afks, etc didn't actually impact you reaching your true elo once a large enough pool of games were played. In the end, you argued, it would work itself out. This made some sense in part because no game was more important than any other, so the idea that it would balance out over enough games is an argument that at least has merit.

Now you shift to a system were you put an inordinate amount of importance on specific games, meaning that if you get trolled, afk, etc in those games you are much more severely impacted. While you can still try to argue that over enough games it will work itself out, that argument is far less compelling when certain games are actually more more important than other games. Just two games can set you back a lot of time now. Just two.

And as the icing on the cake, if you have a troll, afk, etc in one of your champion select promotional matches, there is no escape. Stay, dodge, either way you lose the match. Not only that, if you dodge, you forfeit the entire series.

Just wait until lolking or some other site makes it so players can look at people in their que and find out that they are in a promotional series. You think trolls had power before. I think many trolls will gladly lose a few league points to trash someones promotional series.

Riot thinks having these promotional series will be exciting for players. Sometimes I wonder if Riot plays the same game we do. Putting such high importance on a special subset of matches is one of the worst things you could implement into the new system, and if you really think more "excitement" is the pay out, prepare to be disappointed.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Godly6R

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yegg View Post
Hey all,

To start this discussion, I’d like to go back in time a bit. Back in June of 2012, we announced a change to the ranked queue dodge penalty here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2228786. It was clarified that the change was somewhat of an experiment and that we'd be making further changes if necessary. At the time, we removed Elo penalties for two reasons:

1. The Elo penalties were undermining the matchmaker and opening up abuse cases that people were very much using.
2. Queue dodging is sometimes a valid defense mechanism against toxic situations, and we didn't want to punish people too harshly for using it.

In many ways this worked out well. Players looking for easy wins could no longer dodge their way down to Elo ratings hundreds or thousands points below their skill level. Other players stuck with true griefers in their lobby could get out of that situation without any permanent penalty. These are all good things.

However, over the last 7 months it became clear that there were three undesirable side effects:

1. Trolls gained more power in champ select.
2. Players were much less willing to work together and became much more focused on what they individually wanted.
3. Some players started using queue dodging to micromanage their Elo gains and would dodge whenever they perceived the matchup to be unfavorable.

The first two above led to an increase in trolling in champ select, which in turns leads to an increase in queue dodging. Combined with the increases from the micromanaging group, it’s now the case that queue dodging is very common in the ranked solo queue.

You might think that I'm crazy based on the first point above. “Trolls gained more power when we removed the Elo penalty?” You're probably also thinking that by increasing the penalty now, we're giving trolls more power because it punishes innocent players who are trying to avoid trolls.

The key is this: most trolls want to win just as much as you do. They might believe they need a certain role to do that, or they might be annoying to interact with, but at the end of the day they generally want to win the games they queue up for. Here's a corollary: most trolls don't want to sit through a 30 minute game rocking Karma/Revive/Promote (or whatever the latest "troll picks" are) just as much as you don't want to be in the game alongside them. What they want when they troll pick is for you to dodge for them, because then they'll get another lobby and they might get the role they want. Think back to the days when there was a 10 Elo penalty for dodging. There was much less troll picking in champ select for one simple reason: it often didn't work. If no one dodges, everyone on the team loses, and no individual wanted to dodge and lose Elo, so everyone was compelled to cooperate more. But with the removal of the Elo penalty, it was almost guaranteed that someone would dodge, and once it was clear that troll picking and/or threatening "X or feed" worked, more players starting doing it.

So here's how the penalties work now that the League System is active:

* Dodging in the ranked solo queue will trigger a 6 minute lockout and will deduct 3 League Points (LP).
* Dodging in ranked solo if you've dodged recently will trigger a 30 minute lockout and will deduct 10 LP.
* Dodging a ranked team game will trigger a 1 minute lockout and will deduct 10 LP from the team.
* Dodging in ranked teams if you've dodged recently will trigger a 60 minute lockout and will still deduct 10 LP from the team.
* Dodging during a Promotion or Division series will cancel the series, so you'll have to get back to 100 LP to start another series (likely just one game away, unless you had already lost a couple series games).

Now that League Points are on the line, there's much more incentive for everyone on the team to work together and try to reach a positive consensus on champions and roles. The number of League Points lost is small enough that it's not a huge setback if a dodge does happen, but it's big enough that players will think twice about dodging just because they don't like the matchup or didn't get their role. Taking away League Points does not tell the matchmaker that you're worse at the game, which means the penalty is no longer opening up abuse cases or leading to unfair matches. We've also greatly shortened the time penalties, and almost completely removed them from ranked team dodges, because it sucks when everyone has to wait around for a teammate's dodge penalty to wear off. In general, our goal here is to reduce the amount of time that it takes you to get a game started by reducing the number of failed lobbies.

As with many changes that we make these days, this is an experiment. We'll be monitoring the effects, both in terms of queue dodge rates and also in terms of the feedback that you all give us on the forums. I'll personally be reading all of the replies in this thread even if I don't have a chance to reply to them.
Even Riot employees acknowledge that Karma's only purpose is for trolling. It's time for the remake!