DPS garen vs. tank garen

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hz0ijXGF8qeI0CRT

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Infinite Edge
&
Force of Nature


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PardonMySwag

Senior Member

10-23-2010

I agree with the part that tanky garen IS dps garen. In a previous match, this garen was going for typical "suggested items" for garen such as ghostblade, I went sunfire and completely steam rolled him.


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Churchy

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10-23-2010

Infinity Edge contribution to Judgement damage:

Without Infinity edge at level 18:
Judgement deals 804.5 damage.

With Infinity Edge at level 18:
Judgement deals 1051 with infinity edge.

4000g gives a 200 damage boost to Judgement.

Judgement with sunfire at level 18:
1044.5 damage.
This sunfire damage continues to tick after judgement ends as well.
Sunfire gives 450 health, 45 armor, and 40 dps, for 1300g less than infinity edge.

So comparatively, one IE=1 sunfire+giant's belt, and suddenly you are comparing 850 health and 45 armor to 80 damage and 20% crit with harder hitting crits on your judgement.


The reasons DPS Garen doesn't work:
1. They nerfed his passive survivability to stop him from scaling so well with tank items. This makes non-tank garens quite a bit squishier.

2. He has no steroid skill to take advantage of AD items. His judgement is all he has, and once it's out, he is autoattacking, which will be weak and subpar unless you have attackspeed, lifesteal, crit, damage, and penetration. Most other carries get one of these, but Garen get's none. Since his judgement doesn't scale with attackspeed or lifesteal, and scales very poorly with AD and crit, building for physical dps is counterintuitive. If you don't build for autoattacks, you hit like a feather, and if you do, your judgement hits like a feather.

3. Obviously, building tank doesn't make him hit that much harder, but hitting for 1000 and taking 3k damage to kill is a lot better than hitting for 1200 and taking 1.5k damage to kill.

All math was done without including armor/resists. Keep in mind, the base damage of Garen's judgement cannot crit, only the AD portion can crit. So a "crit spin" with base level 18 stats would not deal (95+38.85)*2, but 95+(38.85*2).


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VoiceofTreason

Senior Member

10-23-2010

I like to get boots 3 if damage is spread equally but sometimes go mercs for high cc teams. The only dps item I get is a ghostblade, it allows you more kills and turret downing capability early game then I go for omen and sunfires if dps heavy or fon/QSS for heavy magic teams. Ghostblade also allows me to get exhuast/ignite over ghost for summoners too.

I rlly prefer dps teams because I can 40% CD with ghostblade/omen.

Besides being tanky I'd say CD reduc is wayyyy more effective than dps items. More Rs, more Es and more Qs, even courage (W) with CD makes you a better tank in longer fights.


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EchoRex

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pieson View Post
which one is better, or is it all situational? My friends suggested a 100% crit build, but I didn't think that that was good. Is crit a good way to build DPS garen, or should he just never be built DPS?
~50% Crit is usually more than enough if you've also built for survivability.

He should pretty much always be built to deal respectable DPS, otherwise he gets ignored and made fun of as he Spin'n'Ults to finish off his teammates kills.

Have seen about 15 garens the past couple days who built as "tanks." Of those, two were able to even be positive K/D/A even with the KS ultimate and splashing "damage" to the entire team by spinning. Damage output is too minimal to care about after early game. Annoying to kill, yes. But not really worth the effort to bother with anything but last.

Then there were the handful who have built with pure glass cannon DPS who were almost as bad, but not quite due to very high damage output.

As opposed to the one who built to have mid/high 2k HP with ~150 armor/resist with just under 250 damage and what looked to be 40-50% crit chance. He chewed through my teammates like they weren't even there.


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Churchy

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10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo7 View Post
~50% Crit is usually more than enough if you've also built for survivability.

He should pretty much always be built to deal respectable DPS, otherwise he gets ignored and made fun of as he Spin'n'Ults to finish off his teammates kills.

Have seen about 15 garens the past couple days who built as "tanks." Of those, two were able to even be positive K/D/A even with the KS ultimate and splashing "damage" to the entire team by spinning. Damage output is too minimal to care about after early game. Annoying to kill, yes. But not really worth the effort to bother with anything but last.

Then there were the handful who have built with pure glass cannon DPS who were almost as bad, but not quite due to very high damage output.

As opposed to the one who built to have mid/high 2k HP with ~150 armor/resist with just under 250 damage and what looked to be 40-50% crit chance. He chewed through my teammates like they weren't even there.
Yes, ignore my math with anecdotal, arbitrary evidence.


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EchoRex

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Yes because that "math" is completely accurate to actual gameplay? (By the way, it isn't. It ignores basic gameplay elements of build, range, and what the items are modifying or lacking to modify.)

And my response wasn't directed at you, it was a reply to the original post, you could tell that by seeing how that is what I quoted.


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Nihles

Senior Member

10-23-2010

The general idea I'm getting from a combination of all replies is get a sunfire and another tank item, possibly MR if needed, and a dps item like a brutalizer. Can't imagine why you wouldn't want a brut, armor pen and CDR is a huge buff to judgement dps. I don't play him, that's just what makes sense to me based on what people have posted here.


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Churchy

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10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo7 View Post
Yes because that "math" is completely accurate to actual gameplay? (By the way, it isn't. It ignores basic gameplay elements of build, range, and what the items are modifying or lacking to modify.)
Yes....that math is completely accurate to actual gameplay. Because damage is calculated on specific formulas, and item costs and stats are concrete.

No, it doesn't ignore anything important really. Sunfire is better damage and adds more survivability than an infinity edge, for 2/3rds of the cost. Infinity edge is the best possible damage item for Garen. It's a simple fact.

But go ahead, post your ideal build, and I will compare its cost effectiveness for you, and show you how ineffective all damage items are on garen.

By the way, you clearly know nothing about Garen, seeing as you mention that 50% crit is a good number to reach. 50% crit only affects the damage portion of judgement from Garen's stats, and not the base damage. Garen needs 271 AD for the damage portion to equal the flat damage of judgement. And at that point? That 50% becomes a 25% damage increase.

But clearly, building for 2500hp, 150 armor/magic resist, 250 damage, and 40% crit is a realistic build for you, in your hour long low elo games. I'm not even sure those stats are possible with six item slots, but you're probably right, seeing as you saw a guy do it this one time at band camp.


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VoiceofTreason

Senior Member

10-24-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Churchy View Post
Yes....that math is completely accurate to actual gameplay. Because damage is calculated on specific formulas, and item costs and stats are concrete.

No, it doesn't ignore anything important really. Sunfire is better damage and adds more survivability than an infinity edge, for 2/3rds of the cost. Infinity edge is the best possible damage item for Garen. It's a simple fact.

But go ahead, post your ideal build, and I will compare its cost effectiveness for you, and show you how ineffective all damage items are on garen.

By the way, you clearly know nothing about Garen, seeing as you mention that 50% crit is a good number to reach. 50% crit only affects the damage portion of judgement from Garen's stats, and not the base damage. Garen needs 271 AD for the damage portion to equal the flat damage of judgement. And at that point? That 50% becomes a 25% damage increase.

But clearly, building for 2500hp, 150 armor/magic resist, 250 damage, and 40% crit is a realistic build for you, in your hour long low elo games. I'm not even sure those stats are possible with six item slots, but you're probably right, seeing as you saw a guy do it this one time at band camp.
I got to say he is right.

Also if someone did the math I am pretty sure a ghostblade (2272)+another brut (922) would be better for garens judgement (and other CDs too) than an IE (4080). Regardless a ghostblade (2272)+1 sunfire (2510) is better than an IE (4080) too. Not to mention when you talk about actually using each build in gameplay, that 1850 BF if rushed makes your early game so **** slow and somewhat takes away from Garen's best role, early game laning while getting an early avarice and brut after boots 1 is awesome sauce.