Suggestions on Elise's kit

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Nekrocow

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Senior Member

01-30-2013

Hi there:

I really like Elise, and I like the fact that she's somewhat similar to nidalee but even more focused on her "beast" form. However, I find some issues with her playstyle, which involves her kit. First, let's see what the spider has to offer:

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Elise
-.Spider Swarm [INNATE]
When Elise's Human Form spells hit an enemy, she readies a Spiderling. When Elise transforms, she summons Spiderlings to attack nearby foes. The maximum number of spiderlings increases with Spider Form's level.

Q.Neurotoxin/Venomous Bite
Human Form ACTIVE: Deals magic damage equal to a base amount plus a percentage of the target's current health. Damage is capped against monsters.

Spider Form ACTIVE: Elise lunges to a target with a poisonous bite that deals magic damage equal to a base amount plus a percentage of the target's missing health. Damage is capped against monsters.

W.Volatile Spiderling/Skittering Frenzy
Human Form ACTIVE: Summons a venom-gorged Spiderling that moves to target location and explodes, dealing magic damage to nearby enemies when it nears an enemy unit or after 3 seconds. The Spiderling will chase down enemy Champions, if it does not hit an enemy at target location. The Spiderling's Movement Speed increases as it gets closer to it's target.

Spider Form PASSIVE: Spiderlings gain bonus attack speed.
ACTIVE: Increases the attack speed of Elise and her Spiderlings for 3 seconds. While active, Elise is healed for a small amount when she or her spiderlings attack.

E.Cocoon/Rappel
Human Form ACTIVE: Elise fires a web that stuns the first enemy hit for 1.5 seconds. It will also reveal enemies that are hit for a second.

Spider Form ACTIVE (ON ENEMY CAST): Elise reveals nearby enemy targets, while she and her Spiderlings lift up into the air, and then descend upon the target enemy.
ACTIVE (ON GROUND CAST): Elise reveals nearby enemy targets while she and her Spiderlings lift up into the air, becoming untargetable for 2 seconds. During that time she can cast Rappel again to descend upon a nearby enemy.

R.Spider Form/Human Form
Spider Form ACTIVE: Elise transforms into a menacing spider, granting access to arachnid abilities. While in Spider Form, Elise deals bonus magic damage with her autoattacks and gains 10 movement speed as well as bonus armor and magic resistance.

Human Form ACTIVE: Elise's human abilities (:P).


She has a hit-and-run playstyle similar to Nidalee and Jayce, where you harass/poke your opponent until he's/she's low enough to face him on melee. Now, let's go through some notes I took while playing her:
1- Spider Swarm gives her nothing. You already have all your spiderlings, so this actually is "buffing" your not-so-good ability to spawn spiderlings with your R. We could simply say this is an extension of your R (Human Form) skill.
2- Neurotoxin/Venomous Bite are beastlike skills. Can't really say there's anything wrong with it since it actually is her best skill. The only "problem" I could see is that using them successfully needs you to dominate both skills. Elise is not a good beginner's champ.
3- Volatile Spiderling/Skittering Frenzy. VS is a really cool skill, deals nice AoE damage, has 80% AP ratio, gives sight of its surroundings and it's impossible to escape from unless you have some sort of blink/dash (or enough distance to run). This is mainly a poking skill, hard to use but pretty efective. It can deal some nasty damage on teamfights too. I'm not sure why if it spawns a "venom-gorged Spiderling", the spiderling does not poison it's enemies xD, but It's pretty good anyway.
SF is, I would say, one of the most importants skills on her kit, since it defines her jump-in-and-beat-em-up fighting style. This skill alone can turn a 1v1 suicide into a brutal assassination. It gives tons of AS and some minor healing.
4- Cocoon/Rappel. Cocoon is a 14 (10) secs CD single target long linear skill-shot stun that costs 65 mana and lasts for 1.5 secs; it also reveals units hit for 1 second. It deals no damage but draws aggro anyway.
Rappel is an incredibly long CD jump, which does not prevent DoT and has a long delay to descend upon enemies. You do not get an assist by rappeling to an enemy before he's/she's killed (even if you already landed next to him/her).
5- Spider Form: Your main playstyle form. It gives some increased resistance, joke extra movement speed, the ability to spawn Spiderlings and extra on-hit magic damage (nasty, nasty extra damage)
Human form: aKa poking stance.


Notes commentaries:
1> She has no real innate ability since her current Innate should be part of her R (Human Form).
2> You need to dominate this if you want to win your lane/jungle effectively.
3> VS: Maybe it could have a poison aftereffect just to match the tooltip xD, but it's already ok.
SF: I would change the flat healing to some form of percent heal, since it doesn't scale with lvl and you won't be healing much at all since you can't stand fighting in mele for so long.
4> Cocoon is the only hard CC skill that doesn't scale with lvl (levelling E just drops it's CD in 1 each level...), has the same mana cost and lasts the same time every level. Also, it deals 0 damage. I believe giving 0 damage to Hard CC skills is a good idea... if everyhard CC skills deals 0 damage. I feel Cocoon is a pretty sad skill, the only real benefit you get from it is that it's your only real escape mechanism... I believe Cocoon should have an AP scaling slow aftereffect (something like 15% + 1% per 10 AP, 2 seconds duration)
Rappel is, well, even worse. The time it takes for Elise to jump and descend doesn't help at all since the distance you travel is very small in comparison. You can't escape with this because you can't jump to allied units... for some reason. On top of that, it's CD (26 to 18 secs) makes this a "worse is nothing" skill. If you could jump to allies and jumping ignored any effects while you are in the air (like Fizz's jump), this would be an awesome skill.
5> Spider form is what makes Elise, Elise. Human form is meh, though that sad stun of yours can save you sometimes.

One extra point is her movespeed. I find her +10 MS bonus to be somewhat meaningless since the last Global MS buff. I think it could get some love xD.

What do you guys think?


Now some fanart from some awesome artists:


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GurkenMAN

Senior Member

01-30-2013

When i bought her i thought somehow the same ("no dmg on e sucks" and such)
Advice:
Play her like 10 (randomnumber) botgames and get RLY used to her skills and what to use when and how.
Then play her another 10 normals and you will see that she is reallly strong against most opponents- well maybe against all. Sure ur teamfighting isnt thaaaat great but this is the price of an incredibly good laning+dueling.
I think shes fine. I mean REALLY fine.

Dislike the incoming manacostnerf because it hurts her earlygame (and on 6 others got ultis which also hurts). Id liked to see some small compensation for this in lategame (where she falls off) but well- lets see.


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turulHAARP

Senior Member

01-30-2013

So you want to buff her?How about no?She has ridiculously strong early-mid game dmg with the proper items thus you will be able to transition into late game without any problems.
She can counter-jungle so hard,control objectives,push,take down towers.
I actually think she will be still too good after the nerfs but it might be because she just perfectly fits to my playstyle and i can literally faceroll with her.

Two things that can be considered adding into her kit:
One is a straight ms buff in spider form.+5 ms to her movement speed in spider form.It's really rage-inducing when i am chasing somebody with E on CD in spider form and the enemy is just not in the range of Q.

Other thing that could be considered is the ability to target an allied vision ward when using E similarly to enemy vision wards.But then again this probably would be too much.

Giving more to her currently would mean a high chance of overbuff which would be followed by knee-jerk nerf(s).


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Wilderwolf

Senior Member

01-30-2013

I main her and if anything they would nerf her before they ever decided to buff any of her moves. She's already balanced, but leaning towards being OP. If they allowed her to use rappel to go to a friendly unit then it would be such an OP skill.


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Nekrocow

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Senior Member

01-30-2013

Her win rate is 47.69%. That's far from OP (unless nobody has learnt how to play her yet; I don't think so).

Maybe her Q damages are a bit high, but I would give up some damage if that means some utility on her "E"s.


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Resther

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Senior Member

01-30-2013

I agree with a few of your points, OP. As an Elise main (in Jungle) I do have a few small issues with parts of her kit, though I've also adapted to them. Here's the changes I'd personally like to see:

Human Form:

Q - Add a second or two of Poison DoT. Considering it's called "Neurotoxin", you'd think they would have added some actual toxins in there somewhere. This would also help out her human Q in that if you're waiting for Spider Form, at least now your Q will deal some extra damage. Hell, they could make it so enemies hit by it (while at above half health) would take the second or two of Poison damage. I think this would be a great change that would improve her harass and utility with it.

W - The only changes here would be improvements to the Spiderling's AI, so that it can hit champions more reliably when you aim it at them. Maybe make it prioritize champions, and leap to them once the Spiderling is about to explode (while in a certain range of the enemy champion of course).

E - I agree 100% that her E needs something extra added on. For it's cooldown, a short, decaying slow after the stun would make her E so much better, without breaking it.

R - Agree 100% with the change here as well. Give her Spider Form a bit more beefiness. Maybe improve the bonus Armor/Magic Resist, so it feels like an ultimate. Compared to Nidalee, Elise only gains 5 for each level of her ult, so a small buff here would be nice. Maybe change it to 10/20/30/40 to line up better with her Ultimate. Additionally, she needs a buff to her movement speed in Spider Form too. Maybe make it scale a bit as well. Possibly 5 per level of her Ultimate.


Spider Form:

Q - Nothing needed here. It works as intended, though if her Human Q doesn't get a DoT, then her Spider Q would be a good place to put it instead. It's not needed though, as her Spider Q is fine as is.

W - Nothing needed here either. I do accidentally activate it while moving, thinking it gives a movement speed buff as well, but it doesn't. If her Spider Form doesn't get a buff to its' bonus Move Speed, then her Spider W would be a suitable place to put it. Other than that, it's fine as is and can go completely unchanged.

E - I agree 100% here as well. Her Spider Form E can be either your saving grace, or your unfortunate demise, depending on whereand how you use it. It's because of this, that I'd like to see her Rappel re-tooled a little bit, so that she can at the very least jump to allied minions. I feel like jumping to allied champions would be far too much, and would create situations where she'd never get caught, making her OP. I feel that if they added the ability to jump to allied minions, it would easily justify the long cooldown on her Spider Form's E. Additionally, I'd like to see Rappel negate enemy abilities during the windup animation. Much like Fizz's E, Elise's E should make her untargettable from the start of the animation, to the end. I've gotten caught in bad situations because of this, and it gets frustrating when you activate the ability and it puts you into a worse position... One last thing here that I'd like to see changed, assuming the "leap to allied minions" thing never gets implemented, is the ability to land anywhere within the circle while she's up in the air. I feel like this would offer her a good chance of escaping, while also making her Rappel more usable in a wider variety of situations. If I want to leap to Baron, I should be able to land next to him, rather than directly on top of him, just as if I want to position myself in brush without being seen, I can do so without having to leap to an enemy minion. I feel like this change would justify the long cooldown, and make it much more user-friendly.


Don't get me wrong, I love Elise just as she is, but I have been playing her since her release day, and have gotten very good with her. Even so, some the above changes would not be entirely OP, and cooldowns and such could be better tweaked by the balance team as needed. These are just my own opinions on Elise'scurrent state in the League. While she's an amazing champion when played right, a slightly more user-friendly kit, and some minor buffs to her arsenal wouldn't be game breaking I don't think. Besides, there's far more ridiculous champions who need some serious toning-down anyway. Why not test some of these proposed Elise changes in the PBE and see what works/what doesn't ? That's what it's for, right ?


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ZachTheApathetic

Senior Member

01-30-2013

I totally disagree with any changes to Elise. I want Riot to STAY AWAY from Elise. She is perfectly fine the way she is now. I don't want her to get put into the "OP" category and then get super nerfed.

Look at this http://www.lolking.net/champions/elise#statistics she has a 51.66% win rate, and a 44.77% ban rate. Why? because she is already fairly hard to counter. A gap closer, a stun, her q is very strong, her w is good for pokes in human form and taking out towers in spider form, and just build her tanky ftw late game. Easy peasy lemon sqeezy

Please I don't want her messed up too, a bunchl my fav champs keep getting over-nerfed DX


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Iateyourbaby

Junior Member

01-30-2013

well from teh comments some peoplez, know how to play harz, and some don't okay, lets begin on her kit. Q. 8% of their HP current HP HUMAN form. and 8% dmg to their missing in spider ? Yea that needs a buff no ?... lol whoever thought anything such is .. really silly shes a assasin, not a upfront fighter ( though her kit does FORCE YOU to BUILD TANKY ) which sucks but benefits you late game when you can pretty much solo their tank... or ADC if they so feel a little frisky ontop of not many champs being able to really 1v1 Elise in a full on fight... because she takes % not a flat damage rate + ap, her ap ratios perfect. I can get about near 20% or more if I go full ap ( which is dumb and trollish because you are squishy because her skills are like skarners , up their butts or no cigar. ) Her rappel... still bugged ( yea riot plz fix the " click the player 20 meters away, still reach it ? ... kind .. really screws you up. ) and if you need to escape.. just get close to a jungle mob and bam, rappel to it, and hope its there ( wards lol ) so really she is the most balanced, her set is based around ( finish them off at 50%) I've not met many champs that survive that 50% mark at early, mid, and even late game why ? Being bursted down 8% of your current hp + a flat amount then 8% of your missing HP really sucks... and she is just a hard to master champ as she should be, I wouldn't want to many good elise players running around, that would just be plain scary.. that is my two cents, no rework, perfect. No suggestions. ( P.S. Just build RoA and other tanky AP items and watch the enemy team scream in agony as you come by )


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MrSnitches

Senior Member

01-30-2013

Her damage early game is pretty meh, but mid-late game it's ridiculous. I combo her so well, she definitely DOES NOT need a buff.


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Dhakka

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Elise is fine. Letting her repel to friendlies would springboard her into obscene space.