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why is khazix top ban

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Jasiwel

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
NiBlack:
Kha'zix have good sustain (self healing and quite low MP costs), high damage, very high mobility, invisibility, ability to poke -> he is simple hard to deal in early/mid/ late game.

Your standard AP mids he eats for breakfast, or at least zone them hard. And he do well in top lane.

Excuse me, what? Self-healing only happens with W that costs a ridiculous amount of mana over time (by the max is costs 100 per salvo) and can only heal at melee range. It's better used for creep clear, the slow (which was just nerfed and is countered by Tenacity), comboing, and to inflict distant damage IF Kha'Zix is ahead enough. He does NOT have high mobility (ultimately that illusion is obtained through the Ult, the Jungle, or the player's decisive movement paths), his invisibility does not make him invulnerable to CC/AoE and only lasts a second per casting of the Ult, and his ability to poke is all up to whether he has the attack to effectively make use of the high mana cost for W. Kha'Zix has a low mana pool as well.

The reason he beats the standard AP mid is because they are squishy mages, which Kha'Zix can deal with easily as a result of his burst combo damage. At the same time, if your AP mid is smart then they'll know Kha'Zix needs Leap, Q, and a way to sustain himself in-lane (whether it be with potions or with W) in order to combo an attack to actually kill mid.

What people also don't understand is that the reason why he does a lot of burst damage is because Q is often Maxed by Level 10, giving him quite a bit more damage with each Q attack, plus isolated damage bonus (which was also nerfed).

Quote:
alfavhunter:
kha is a bit op atm, not becauseof his damage. but because of his constant slows

his passiveslow or W slow is fine on their own, but one of them has to go or he will alwaysbe to good or just plain trash because they will take ot much damage from him

his damageis fine atm, its his control that is to strong for the damage he does becausewhen playedright he pritty much has a frozen mallet slow for free for the duration of any short to decent duration fight

removing the slow on his W would make him perfectly fine, but they still need to fix his jump to get over smaller walls when its not evolved

also, until rengar is fixed, they shoudl deactivate the current hidden quest

Kha'Zix is not OP. He was just nerfed. His slow was nerfed to 25% from 35%, which is countered by Tenacity. W also does not come with a Slow by default. It has to be evolved and then Kha'Zix has to have his passive "Unseen Threat" bonus (which slows) activated. Evolved W gains "Unseen Threat's" bonus and slow.

It's not like Frozen Mallet at all. It only slows movement by 25% for 2 seconds, where Frozen Mallet slows movement by 40% for 1.5 seconds and by 30% if ranged. Quite a difference, especially given Kha'Zix has to risk exposure and vulnerability to obtain any kills when he slows an enemy. He is fragile. Unless he has Bloodthrister, there is little immediate sustain to help him that won't jeopardize his ability to escape, as W loses a lot of stopping power if Kha'Zix does not retain his passive bonus and also costs mana that could be used for Leap or the Ult. He requires Flash, Leap, and/or his Ult to escape, all of which have painfully long cooldowns by default.

I'm glad you recognize Leap's issues though. It's such a pain when I try to Leap within the appropriate Radius across a small wall and I just faceplant into the wall itself, most often dying from the enemy in the process. It also needs, I mean really needs, to grant Kha'Zix immunity to CC/Status while in midair because it's a ridiculous important skill for Kha'Zix in terms of both escape and offense, not mentioning the painful cooldown time.

I think Rengar needs more time before people knock him with his reword, but I don't play him nor do I really ever play against him (and the times I have I've been wrecked), so I can't really say much there.


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BlargChikaBlargh

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Khaz is like Talon mid. Top he is beatable so long as you're smart enough to dodge and poke him when possible. His mana pool blows and the CDs are too high for his escape/chase. Granted it refreshes on kill or assist but that doesn't help in lane unless you're diving for a surefire kill. I also agree Leap needs to be fixed for walls but not grant CC immunity. Trist doesn't have it so why should he??

In terms of Rengar, they reverted his changes and pretty much buffed him and now he hits like a truck again.


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Irish Red Cap

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Kha'zix is top ban because he is making mages go obsolete. You put Kha'zix mid and 95% of AP champs that need the mid lane to be able to farm and gank well can no longer go there because Kha'zix will utterly destroy them.

Unlike talon, Kha'zix can jump without warning and burst out much more dmg even if his leap doesn't hit you compared to talon who had much shorter range and was obvious when he was running at you.

It's all about his ability to poke effectively with his W and if you get within hp range he will jump leap-w-q and either kill you or hit ignite and just watch as you die. Mages can't handle the gap closer + the burst from a melee non-mana hungry champ. Until he gets scaled back a bit either damage or increased mana cost people will continue to ban him just so that they can fit the meta and put an AP caster mid.


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VitaminBeer

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
Jasiwel:
Excuse me, what? Self-healing only happens with W that costs a ridiculous amount of mana over time (by the max is costs 100 per salvo) and can only heal at melee range. It's better used for creep clear, the slow (which was just nerfed and is countered by Tenacity), comboing, and to inflict distant damage IF Kha'Zix is ahead enough. He does NOT have high mobility (ultimately that illusion is obtained through the Ult, the Jungle, or the player's decisive movement paths), his invisibility does not make him invulnerable to CC/AoE and only lasts a second per casting of the Ult, and his ability to poke is all up to whether he has the attack to effectively make use of the high mana cost for W. Kha'Zix has a low mana pool as well.

The reason he beats the standard AP mid is because they are squishy mages, which Kha'Zix can deal with easily as a result of his burst combo damage. At the same time, if your AP mid is smart then they'll know Kha'Zix needs Leap, Q, and a way to sustain himself in-lane (whether it be with potions or with W) in order to combo an attack to actually kill mid.

What people also don't understand is that the reason why he does a lot of burst damage is because Q is often Maxed by Level 10, giving him quite a bit more damage with each Q attack, plus isolated damage bonus (which was also nerfed).


Kha'Zix is not OP. He was just nerfed. His slow was nerfed to 25% from 35%, which is countered by Tenacity. W also does not come with a Slow by default. It has to be evolved and then Kha'Zix has to have his passive "Unseen Threat" bonus (which slows) activated. Evolved W gains "Unseen Threat's" bonus and slow.

It's not like Frozen Mallet at all. It only slows movement by 25% for 2 seconds, where Frozen Mallet slows movement by 40% for 1.5 seconds and by 30% if ranged. Quite a difference, especially given Kha'Zix has to risk exposure and vulnerability to obtain any kills when he slows an enemy. He is fragile. Unless he has Bloodthrister, there is little immediate sustain to help him that won't jeopardize his ability to escape, as W loses a lot of stopping power if Kha'Zix does not retain his passive bonus and also costs mana that could be used for Leap or the Ult. He requires Flash, Leap, and/or his Ult to escape, all of which have painfully long cooldowns by default.

I'm glad you recognize Leap's issues though. It's such a pain when I try to Leap within the appropriate Radius across a small wall and I just faceplant into the wall itself, most often dying from the enemy in the process. It also needs, I mean really needs, to grant Kha'Zix immunity to CC/Status while in midair because it's a ridiculous important skill for Kha'Zix in terms of both escape and offense, not mentioning the painful cooldown time.

I think Rengar needs more time before people knock him with his reword, but I don't play him nor do I really ever play against him (and the times I have I've been wrecked), so I can't really say much there.



I'm not sure I can trust this post since you seem to be a kha zix player


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VitaminBeer

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
WhiteHatCracker:
Kha'zix is top ban because he is making mages go obsolete. You put Kha'zix mid and 95% of AP champs that need the mid lane to be able to farm and gank well can no longer go there because Kha'zix will utterly destroy them.

Unlike talon, Kha'zix can jump without warning and burst out much more dmg even if his leap doesn't hit you compared to talon who had much shorter range and was obvious when he was running at you.

It's all about his ability to poke effectively with his W and if you get within hp range he will jump leap-w-q and either kill you or hit ignite and just watch as you die. Mages can't handle the gap closer + the burst from a melee non-mana hungry champ. Until he gets scaled back a bit either damage or increased mana cost people will continue to ban him just so that they can fit the meta and put an AP caster mid.


this makes sense to me, so basically he counters all AP mids


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Ghostshadowblade

Senior Member

01-29-2013

I hate to say this, but I really wish I didn't waste my money on Kha' zix


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GurkenMAN

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
Autocthon:
Kha Zix goes mid. gg


Hes far from op (esp mid). suddenly ppl think that because he was picked by pros. Before considered up- funny somehow.


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GurkenMAN

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
WhiteHatCracker:
Kha'zix is top ban because he is making mages go obsolete. You put Kha'zix mid and 95% of AP champs that need the mid lane to be able to farm and gank well can no longer go there because Kha'zix will utterly destroy them.

Unlike talon, Kha'zix can jump without warning and burst out much more dmg even if his leap doesn't hit you compared to talon who had much shorter range and was obvious when he was running at you.

It's all about his ability to poke effectively with his W and if you get within hp range he will jump leap-w-q and either kill you or hit ignite and just watch as you die. Mages can't handle the gap closer + the burst from a melee non-mana hungry champ. Until he gets scaled back a bit either damage or increased mana cost people will continue to ban him just so that they can fit the meta and put an AP caster mid.


i disagree. u see the leap to w coming. np if u CAN see it. then hes just a worse kassa in mid without silence but with difficultto use sustain. np imo- the"pros" just werent aware of it. next time ppl will


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Zaurok

Senior Member

01-29-2013

He's OP when people just assume they can eat his damage. He's melee and needs to last hit with his AA most of the time. Most will evolve W first so he can clear waves fast and apply his passive. Stand behind minions and never engage him by yourself (or he'll get extra damage on Q). You can easily see if he evolves leap (big wings) and if he doesn't he is pretty easy to manage mid lane. You should be able to farm without letting him leap on you and if he does leap move away so that he can't Q you (and if possible go behind minions to avoid W). He cannot spam his W or he'll run out of mana fast.

Avoid his W (usually evolved) and avoid his leap. If you can play against a LB you can easily play against a Kha. Play passive and punish him when he misses a leap combo. Once leap is on CD you can somewhat harass him freely if you can dodge his W. His evolved W isn't a cone, you can dodge the projectiles by standing in-between them. His ultimate basically lets him re-apply his passive 2-3 times. It doesn't really do much else (besides the small stealth/MS and if evolved, dmg mitigation during stealth). In other words, his ultimate is pure utility.


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Stevefin

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Must of seen pro games. that is how most OP champs come around, who in the top 1% can do well with a certain champ


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