Let's Discuss Heimerdinger (mechanics/theme)

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Kaza Toast

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Greetings! I have seen a lot of amazing discussions on mechanics, theme and the like for a few weeks now. Every time stuff like this comes up people mention Heimerdinger. I love the guy. He is by far my favorite champion in league. When the changes to the towers targeting priority were made I saw a thread talking about heimerdinger and I saw some reds posted there. They spoke to why its so hard to balance him, namely his pushing power. If they tried to buff any part of him the fact his turrets can attack towers basically means you lose the tower if you leave lane. I'd say this is a problem of mechanics.

On the other side of the forums I have been seeing a lot of talk about themes and how the fantasy of the character plays out in game. Good examples would be Vi and Draven.
As far as theme, Heimerdinger has his turrets for his "inventor" theme but his other normal skills are just kinda mage-y.

If possible I'd like to discuss the revered inventor and talk about how we could "fix" him in light of season 3.

Personally I think the turret play is what makes heimer unique. Placing a turret and utilizing its positioning in lane is a joy. His other skills just feel like mage abilities: a ranged poke and a stun/blind.

So, the MAIN problem that is preventing riot from making too many changes to heimerdinger is: His turrets can attack towers.
I thought long about how you could incorporate more "inventor" like themes into his kit, and what I came up with SEEMED to me to work well and not be broken, and keep a lot of how he plays now intact. The theme here is around turret play.

My proposed Heimer:

  • Q:
    Change his max ammo to 4. Turrets cannot attack towers. Turret damage counts as spell damage (procs spell vamp/Rylai's)
    • Level 1: Can place 2 yellow turrets (yellow turrets are half as strong as they are now.)
    • Level 2: Can place 4 yellow turrets
    • Level 3: Can place Green turrets (armor/MR shred, these take two ammo and can only have 2 max out at a time)
    • Level 4: Turrets get more HP
    • Level 5: Can place a Red turret (Armor/MR shred and AoE attack that is as big as tiamat is now, takes 4 ammo can only have 1 out at a time)
Once he has more turrets at his disposal when he casts the spell he gets a TF-like selection of turrets. Yellow - Green - Red. He can only have 4 ammo on the field at a time. That means that he can either have 4Y / 2Y1G / 2G / 1R
I think this helps his position and choice in lane without being to complicated. Having 4 "weak" turrets out, or 2 "normal" turrets out or one "powerful" turret makes sense to me and allows for interesting placements.
  • W:
    Selected turret is boosted forward by rockets, damaging and knocking aside any enemy it hits
    • Levels would just be CD and damage
I always thought heimers Rockets were kind of strange. The just shoot from him. back in the day they only targeted Champions, but that was OP. I feel like as an inventor he should modify his turrets to reposition them and deal damage. The skill would be easy to use, very similar to Vikor's death laser. Select the turret, then drag in the direction you want to shoot it and release. this would also make people pay more attention to where heimer places his turrets and make trading more interesting (you'd have to be in range of the turret to send it flying)
  • E:
    Sends out a grenade that, on impact, creates a gravity well for 5 seconds. Any turrets in the wells ranged are instantly pulled to the center. All other units are attracted to the center. Reactivating the skill implodes the gravity well dealing AOE damage.
    • Levels would increase damage
This right here was tricky. Right now his grenade is ether amazing or sucks depending on how its used. The blind is great for ADC's and the stun is what it's all about. I wanted a way to pull in turrets to a "target place" since that would help in a team fight. Also the gravity well creates some interesting dynamics: When running towards the center you run faster, when running away, you are slowed. The whole idea with the old 'nade was to stun someone between his turrets and wail on him. I feel this keeps that idea while bringing the pain for team fights. Also this would allow some interesting strategies like hiding turrets nearby, then pulling them in when someone jumps on you.
  • R:
    Immediately places two turrets on either side of Heimerdinger, these turrets do not count toward ammo limits and blow up at the end of the ultimate.Upgrades turrets to allow them to target turrets for 10 seconds.
    • Level 1: Ultimate Places Yellow turrets
    • Level 2: Ultimate Places Green turrets
    • Level 3: Ultimate Places Red turrets
Like all ultimates this is what makes the champion. As you can see I have made heimers theme all about his turrets. By moving the ability to attack towers into his ultimate people dont have to fear AS much of his hellish pushing. Also, two extra turrets for 10 seconds (along with being able to place up to 4 other turrets, 2 normal turrets or 1 strong red turret) allows heimer to make an impact on team fights.

Putting this all together, you can see he still has elements that make him fun now, but focus him on placing turrets. By removing his toxic pushing potential from his normal kit it allows him to have more of an impact in game.

Of course I am not a designer so this might just be op as hell without my realizing it but I did want to have a discussion on heimerdinger, his core mechanics and how it might be fixed.

What do you guys think of the inventor? His theme? how he plays now? I know there are a lot of people who love the guy and the more constructive talk we have about him the more riot will see we want his rework moved up in priority!

EDIT: Firefox711 made a great post on his thoughts about heimer and I wanted to show the post here since his is deep in the 4th page!
Quote:
There has been some talk already about how his turrets should work, but I'd like to focus on more about his turrets in regards to his "theme vs mechanics".
Let's start.

Quote:
Personally I think the turret play is what makes heimer unique. Placing a turret and utilizing its positioning in lane is a joy.

I agree 100% with this. Putting mechanic aspects aside -just on an a pure theme basis- his turret based gameplay is what sets him apart from all the other champions in the league, and gives him a very unique gameplay style. Because Hiemerdinger's theme is about being an inventor/scientist, I always felt like you should be trying to "out think" your opponent, and using your best judgement/intelligence in how you should position/ or re-position your turrets. And it feels good knowing that you're able to outzone the enemy (or improve your own position) by using your turrets tactically.

Quote:
So, the MAIN problem that is preventing riot from making too many changes to heimerdinger is: His turrets can attack towers.

So, this is where the two aspects collide. On one hand, it feels good being able to revolve you're gameplay around heimer's turrets and push out your opponent from lane, but on the other hand, there's not much counterplay/ or choice, available to the other laner if he is forced to go back, and be at risk of losing his Mid tower because of Hiemer's turrets. Now I know there has been a recent update on how towers will know focus "pets" so this would include Heimer's turrets, so I guess this sort of helps the problem, but it is still possible to take down a tower, by just setting 2 turrets at the tower, and just when they are about to die, you heal them back up with your ultimate. I read somewhere on a red's post (maybe Morello's?) that his turrets based gameplay is anti-fun for the other player to lane against from a design perspective. So what can we do?

Quote:
Turrets cannot attack towers.
*Obligatory deep breath* I think with the upcoming rework, don't know when, but when it does come, Riot is going to have to figure out, how we can keep the core elements of Heimerdinger (i.e his turret based gameplay), without hindering the game from a design perspective. And I honestly don't even know how to begin to approach this since I'm not a game designer. But I do think we (as Heimer players) are going to have to give up some of Heimer's current pushing power from his kit, and centralize it more about zoning and positioning with his turrets in a healthy manner for both the player using Heimer, and for the person laning against Heimer. Your suggestion is interesting because if removes the burden of the enemy laner of not having counterplay/ or choice against heimer's turrets at least for the beginning phase of the game since he can back freely knowing that his tower won't be demolished in a matter of seconds.

I still feel that pushing is part of Heimer's core elements, and so I'm not saying it should be completely eradicated, but I can understand why it would be unhealthy from a game design perspective, from what I've read. What I would like to see is maybe take away some of Heimer's early game power so we can increase counterplay/ or choice for the two people who have to lane against each other, and move it towards Heimer's late game ability to be able fight in teamfights, whether it be having turrets scale on health or letting Heimer automatically summon turrets around him with his ult, I don't know, I'm not a designer. ;)

One possible suggestion I will say though, because this is sometimes frustrating as a Heimer player. The scenario: You are chasing down an enemy with very little health left, and you know one more rocket will finish the job, but when you go to press W, you find that your rockets instead of one rocket flying into the face of the enemy, all 3 take a detour and hit 3 enemy minions behind you. What if when you activated you're ult (UPGRADE!!!), it allowed you to upgrade all rockets in the next 6-7 to prioritize champions? I would think this would be healthy because it can't be done all the time so you would have to wait for the right moment to pull it off (hence, the enemy has a choice to engage or stay in lane depending on whether Heimer's ult is on cooldown), but it also fits Heimer's theme as an "inventor" to do that sort of thing. Plus it would bring a lot less frustration on escaped kills. ;)

Looking forward to more discussion in this thread. :)

TL;DR: I agree with the OP on that: Heimer should be reworked to fit his theme more as an inventor/scientist, and that (IMO) those core elements of "pushing, positioning, zoning, and out thinking your opponent" should stay intact without causing hindrance to the game. (I know- easier said than done- that's why it will take a while to get figure it out). And that we might have to give up on some of Heimer's early game power so that the game can get healthier for not only Heimer player's but the enemy laner as well, even if it means things like removing Heimer's ability to attack towers with his turrets, so that we can focus it more about zoning/ positioning in lane.

TL:DR for the TL:DR: Just wait for Riot to do something, or come and participate in this thread :)


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BiggerFish

Senior Member

01-23-2013

You could have entitled this thread "Lets get Ignored by Riot" and accomplished the same thing.


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Kaza Toast

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggerFish View Post
You could have entitled this thread "Lets get Ignored by Riot" and accomplished the same thing.
True enough, I do want to talk about him though, even if my little exposition in the middle is utter rubbish.


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Gath Immortal

Senior Member

01-23-2013

i like it, especially the grenade and rocket fixes, feels much more like a turret-based champion.


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tempname1032

Senior Member

01-23-2013

He is overpowered, anti fun, and needs more nerfs.


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Dante Brimscone

Senior Member

01-23-2013

If nothing else they could at least add a timer to his turrets so you know how long exactly until the next one is ready.


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Kaza Toast

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmidorifeed View Post
He is overpowered, anti fun, and needs more nerfs.
That is why I proposed the changes above. How would you change him to bring him in line?

Quote:
If nothing else they could at least add a timer to his turrets so you know how long exactly until the next one is ready.
I think a red somewhere said they agreed with that. I am guessing when Heimer gets on the top of the priority list he will get all the bug fixes and QoL improvements he needs.


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Q Destroyer

Member

01-23-2013

Having a tf turret system would not be good imo. Try placing 4 yellow turrets in a row without messing it up. I also don't think he should get spell vamp from turrets.
I've always felt that his rocket should be a skillshot like corki's ult. Perhaps when it blows it could displace enemies like a ziggs satchel.
His grenade is okay as is, if the stun radius was a little bit bigger it would be completely fine.
If his ult simply placed more turrets it would make it still lackluster. It would continue to be very defensive unless the placed turrets targeted enemy champs.
Just my two cents. Love Heimerdinger right now I think he just needs a few very small tweaks. Any drastic changes and they will destroy his passive playstyle. I know Riot doesn't like passive play but can't they have at least one champ that is like Heimer?


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BiggerFish

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Brimscone View Post
If nothing else they could at least add a timer to his turrets so you know how long exactly until the next one is ready.
But the guessing is half the fun!

QQQQQQQQQQQ-Plop THANK GOD


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DrHextechDude

Senior Member

01-23-2013

You have some good ideas there but sorry for ruining your ideas,but the Heimerdinger rework plans have ended.I clearly remember seeing one post a Rioter made in a secret server (the server Riot tests stuff before getting them to PBE) with the new rework.

But i dont think we will have Heimer love soon.

I love him though.


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