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Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous

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Senior Member


Hey guys! Gonna be on a bit of a hiatus!

College is leaving me little free time as it is, but I'm currently downloading SC2 and am going to waste no time in figuring out how to, in layman's terms, "mod the sh*t out of it"! I'll be learning the ropes and experimenting with it for the next month or so, and once I've got my bearings, I'm going to see if I can prototype a few (or all) of my redesigns and OC.

I'll leave the thread in Peri's hands for now--there's work to be done!

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Senior Member


Going to edit this post later on today! <reserved>

EDIT: Here it is Morello (and Xelnath,) - I'm having all of my hopes up. I realize it's a wall of text, it just carries a lot of emotional load and is very important to me, I hope that is enough for you to start reading and hopefully respond. (Please note the post is far from entirely subjective, I'm also just trying to reason with you through analysis and conclusions)

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Senior Member


Morello, originally I would have inserted a post here where I'd specifically mention that I'd just like all of our ideas and say how good I think they are.

It included a lot of quotes of people that agreed but I got rid of the post completely - not only can you look those posts up yourself, you'd probably also feel attacked by it as my post was me rubbing in your face how I feel most of the content can be way better without me really saying or proving anything.

I intended to make a constructive post but without me even realizing it had an undertone of arrogance and negativity. I hope I'll do better with this post, I hope you'll have no regrets of reading this and most importantly; I hope you'll reply and have no mixed feelings of whether you should've replied or not.

You say that champions such as Vladimir and Yorick would be entirely different if you had the opportunity to do them over. I hope it's safe to say you feel those champions could be better - I find this very important and interesting.

I hope that you realize that as long as you don't actually rework them - they'll never be as good as they could be. I hope it's safe to say that if you don't rework these champions, League of Legends as a game will never be as good as it could be.

That said - MOBA's are a relatively new genre and I feel there will eventually be companies that are younger and hungrier than you guys - companies that embrace thematic champion design more completely and focus more effort into that aspect while not sacrificing mechanics, readability and counterplay along the road. If that happens, then I feel them overtaking in the market is just about inevitable - that's how capitalism tends to work.

ItemsGuy doesn't want you guys to be overtaken and has his reasoning and solutions of how to prevent that as much as he can - he doesn't want League's lifespan to be cut short because we feel you've chosen for quick-fixes and short-term gains more than investing in longevity and creating room for as much positive growth as possible.

Allow me to include this one quote - please note I do not intend to sound hostile - the person copied this from a different OP:

This is why I fear people make threads such as the 'I want to be excited for Quinn but I know, once her kit is released I'll be disappointed' thread. I feel the content Riot releases gets old, fast.

What happens is that players get so hungry for new content they don't care what lands on their plate, the playerbase will eat it up regardless and Riot will still think they did a good job.

It's something that feeds into itself, players are always excited about content because they are more or less bored and therefore are always happy for new champions, meaning Riot really has no incentive to step up their game.


This pretty much sums up everything I've been screaming about for 2 years now.

There is a pretty huge portion of the playerbase that feels 'something is missing'. Often these guys get downvoted due to the mass of the playerbase supporting you regardless of what you throw on their plates, yet that same mass are also the guys that 2 weeks after Quinn release open threads titled 'Quinn is useless and boring' and such.

I'm really not trying to step on your toes here, I hope you understand that.

Riot - you have no reason to change at this moment, because you're numerically doing damn well right now. You've got nothing to fear at this moment, because there is no true strong competition for you guys.

Please note - I'm expressing my feelings here, I could be entirely wrong but I hope people will think of this as a plausible way of thinking; I would say that the success of League of Legends as a game and you - RiotInc as a company - has created a thick layer of stubbornness where I have tried to pierce through.

Out of all the discussion I've seen between you and Ryan (ItemsGuy), you guys surprisingly agree over a whole lot and I got extremely excited when reading all of that, yet we've recently stumbled onto something and still feels like a hard smack in the face..

Now comes what I've been dying to tell and ask you for the past couple of weeks, please note I'm saying and asking you this in all humbleness, curiosity, confusion and respect:

Taking the simple, quite disappointing copy/paste reply ItemsGuy has gotten in response to his application - I'm really having a hard time believing that his application was taken seriously.

I've really got mixed feelings about it, I had hoped he would've been selected for a skype interview at least - the more I think about it the more I worry they've reviewed his application with haste 'oh this guy has only made up some kits, everyone can do that' - without acknowledging the amount of thought and the importance of the philosophy, the philosophy that has been applied to every single redesign he has made, the philosophy that was crafted out of all the things you've said as a company what makes a good design.

On top of that, I don't even want to think about it that the new thread by Zileas pretty much confirms that to some extent, as now I got the feeling they looked at his work and were like 'Only kits, no mods, sorry to disappoint this kid, but let's move on, probably nothing worth looking at here.'

A player 'YamiBelgarath' we have bumped into (you've talked to him in this thread as well) was so kind to give his opinion of what I should be saying here - convincing me to rewrite the original post I had set up and writing this one. On top of that he honestly said that he got the feeling that you were speaking to ItemsGuy as if he were one of your fellow designers working by your side, which tempted me more to ask you this as I'm not only confused, but this also has truly made me a sad panda bear.

ItemsGuy has tried to capture the very theme of the champions he has redesigned, giving it a unique playstyle while improving on readability along the road and most importantly; providing plenty of counterplay as that is what makes a game dynamic and engaging.
(You've said that he'd be sacrificing mechanics if you want to live up to theme more, I personally feel this is not true and that his Redesigns are very rich in mechanics!)

All I'm doing here is being unsure and speculating, perhaps even overestimating how good ItemsGuy actually is, but I hope you understand that taking all of the attention our threads have gotten and how much you liked the discussion into account - I really can't be sure if he has been taken seriously - I'll still keep panicking that they did not get to see or acknowledge his real talent and the solid philosophy. I think you are missing out on something.

Fundamentally, it's hard to find great talent. We take it where we can get it.

I'm just a seventeen year old kiddo and I do not plan to become a game designer, but I believe I stumbled onto someone with a lot of talent that has done a lot of hard work. Also - I believe in justice. I'm quite a philosopher and psychologist, perhaps I'll once knock on your doors to contribute to the player behavior team one day, but for now I'll try and help to give a dear friend of mine a - in my opinion - well-deserved chance to have you take a look at his work.

To you this is probably all going to sound extremely stupid, perhaps even too ambitious and immature, asking you all of this, but the longer I put myself down by thinking all of that I get reminded by this quote;

"Anybody who ever built an empire or changed the world sat where you are now. And it's because they sat there that they were able to do it."

Like I said, I'm a seventeen year old kid and I'm aware of the fact my opinion could potentially mean close to nothing to you because I'm young, an amateur - and in your eyes I have no 'real' experience in the game-industry. I have nothing to lose anymore. This is my last bullet.

The following is probably going to sound extremely stupid and unbelievable just because I am who I am but I'm going to give it a shot regardless, in all seriousness and not because I'm 'just his friend', I'm going to say this because I believe he's right and have used my brain since we've been talking to each other; I'm here to tell you that Ryan Melley is your guy. You'd want him.

Redesign Olaf, Vladimir, Malphite, Yorick, Zyra, Sion, Maokai, Veigar, Nunu, Warwick, Nocturne, Pantheon, Heimerdinger - those I hope you'll read carefully.

I understand that reading all of those Redesigns takes time but I promise you, you'll like them. You'll like reading them. I really feel this is quality work you'd like to check out.

Please note Morello, I can assure you that Ryan is not the average forum-goer that uploads his ideas to the champion suggestion forums and assumes it's the best design ever while in reality it is riddled with flaws due to either lack of counterplay, unreadability or mismatched theme, I hope you'll believe me and take my words seriously - I beg you to read it and eventually form your own opinion of whether this is quality or not afterwards.

Note: Some have a lot of changes, some have minor changes, not a whole lot to change about Olaf, for example!

EDIT: I feel Karma is worth mentioning, Scarizard has said her new playstyle is about 'tension' and 'momentum' and has admitted there no longer is anything 'Karmatic' about her, pretty much stepping away from the most readable theme you could work with when designing Karma - Karma Redesign is a design that completely revolves around a readable and graspable common goal/theme: 'Karma' aka 'What goes around comes around', I feel making her more thematically tied while also greatly improving in terms of readability.

I feel her new playstyle is extremely abstract and thus requires people to really learn what Karma's skills do (reading tooltips or uneasily having to memorize all of the spell-effects) instead of giving the player instantly an idea of what the champions abilities are supposed to do right from an instant, something I feel that's pretty obvious when you tell them: 'Karma!' or 'What goes around, comes around' or 'Karma is a b*tch!'

Also feel Redesign Soraka is worth mentioning as you don't like her passive nature, I feel Ryan has made her more readable with her Redesign and improving on that 'passiveness'

Thank you Morello.

I and I'm sure ItemsGuy as well is more than ready to soak up any constructive critique because what knocks him down can only make him stronger, note that he is planning on making a mod out of his work to reapply for the next opportunity of getting an internship - but perhaps you won't find it necessary to knock him down, perhaps you won't find it necessary for him to reapply like that after you've really investigated and analyzed his work.

Note that I've picked my words with caution and had a hard time typing this, I'm a dude from Europe and I'm not extremely good at English so I'm not sure what snare I'm actually going to hit here. I hope you'll excuse me if you feel I could have done better as my intentions are to humbly ask for a response, by no means am I trying to sound condescending.

'It's tough to craft a bullet that pierces through the armor but gently touches the heart.'


Bestbilbo aka Perifear

I hope you take this seriously Morello (and Xelnath), I hope you take the time for this, I think you'll love this:

Let me make things easier for you, here are all the Redesigns I'd like you to read carefully - hotlinked:

Please don't skip on the 'overviews' in within every Redesign!

Redesign Olaf: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-olaf-berserker.html) Ever since you guys have nerfed him he has been on that 10 lowest winrates list having a ~40% winrate for about ~3 months now.

Instead of touching his 'toxic', 'anti-fun', 'non-counterplayable', frustrating and 'OP' part of his kit you decided to touch his normal abilities instead.

The Redesign improves on counterplay by making him more of a characteristic and realistic berserker while also making his ultimate less of a free out-of-jail card by only cc immunity if you decide to escape and not use it aggresively.

I feel that currently it is way too frustrating for a fed Olaf to charge through your team and wrecks all of your squishies without them or you being able to do anything. Currently, I feel the counterplay options are rather poor - they're pretty much non-existant when Olaf ults.

Redesign Poppy: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-poppy-iron-ambassador.html) Hasn't really gotten any love or seen real consistant competitive play for years.

Extremely weak and frustrating early game/laning phase for the poppy player, hypercarry status (not a problem!) that barely offers real solid counterplay when reaching that status (I feel this is) at the cost of the fun of the enemy team.

Redesign Malphite: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-malphite-shard-of.html)More depth, theming, counterplay and readability.

Redesign Warwick: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-warwick-blood-hunter.html)Theming, readability, depth, counterplay

EDIT-Ception: I just read on the forums you were planning on 'fixing Warwick' - would that be getting rid of those toxic mechanics while making him more viable as a jungler and making him more dynamic and engaging? I personally feel that's what Warwick Redesign does!

Redesign Zyra: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-zyra-rise-of-thorns.html)Theming, readability, extremely unique flavor of mage.

Redesign Vladimir: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-vladimir-crimson.html)Rid of toxic elements, more depth, more versatile and engaging.

Redesign Nunu: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-nunu-yeti-rider.html) Thematic changes and thus also improving on readability, making Willump more of a characteristic yeti and Nunu more of a childish annoyance, mainly adding way more depth than current Nunu pretty much being a slow bot and buff bot.

PS: Ever played against current point-click Nunu? It's no fun to see him sustain and poke you down with ease. Poor counterplay, in my opinion.

Redesign Veigar: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-veigar-tiny-master-of.html)Characteristic changes improving on theme readability and counterplay, also making Veigar more of a unique and distinctive character.

Redesign Yorick: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/champion-redesign-yorick-gravedigger.html)Everything: Theming, readability, counterplay, depth.

Redesign Nocturne: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-nocturne-eternal.html)Making Nocturne the real living nightmare you expect him to be.

Redesign Sion: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/champion-redesign-sion-undead-champion.html)More 'Undead Chopping' and no weird magically stunning and shielding around.

Redesign Pantheon: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-pantheon-artisan-of.html) Pantheon a manly spartan? Hell yes! Why Redesign? More counterplay, way more depth while still a manly spartan.

Redesign Heimerdinger: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-heimerdinger-revered.html)This dude gets to invent his own sh*t, literally.

Redesign Soraka: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/03/champion-redesign-soraka-starchild.html) Extremely passive, pretty 'boring' unreadable champion? No longer by adding depth to her design making her more aggressive, while making her more readable due to new thematic direction!

Redesign Karma: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/03/champion-redesign-karma-enlightened-one.html)Thematic changes and most importantly: way more readable due to the new dedicated playstyle, all abilities revolving around that theme/common goal.

Redesign Maokai: (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-maokai-twisted-treant.html) Thematic changes making him more readable, pretty much making him like what you'd expect from this grumpy old stump.

Funfact: With Redesign Warwick and Redesign Soraka they become natural enemies! Warwick gains bloodlust due to Soraka naturally being encouraged to be fairly low while Soraka can turn the tides if for instance Warwick is hunting another low HP target, Soraka may ult this ally that is in trouble and now the wolf has to run back with his tail between his legs!

Maybe I'm just going to be way too scared than I should be, maybe I'm even being cynical, I'm just very afraid you are going to see this through way too lightly because you assume it's just way too unlikely that a 19 year old is so good at designing - I'm afraid you'll think this work 'is pretty okay' while you think it's not that important, I'm afraid you don't acknowledge the potential..

Ryan's a problem solver, if he sees a problem, he fixes it. If he sees a need, he'll fill it.

I hope these'll pass as some good easy wins - see how ItemsGuy has shifted a few existing abilities/designs to make them more readable and more thematically tied:

1. Alistar could play more like a characteristic bull! Hence: Alistar Redesign. (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-alistar-minotaur.html)
Alistar's current kit is not entirely characteristic to a 'Rampaging Bull' yet Alistar's current kit does completely fit on Edmund, The Abomination! (http://lolchampdesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/original-champion-edmund-abomination.html) Edmund, placeholder of Alistar's current kit.

Another one:

2. Lee Sin's characteristic blindness is not really what he's all about when it comes to gameplay, mostly he just shifts around the battlefield, hence Lee Sin Redesign (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-lee-sin-blind-monk.html), entire playstyle that revolves around 'Blind Monk' aka 'Locating your enemies and then kicking their *sses afterwards!'

Also: Lee Sin's kit has proven to be pretty problematic due to the fact he has a lot in his kit and thus not a whole lot of defined weaknesses that make solid counterplay available against him.

Shen doesn't really play like this epic assasin ninja (you've said so yourself in this thread), hence Shen Redesign! (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-shen-eye-of-twilight.html)

No offense with this one: Jayce pretty much had this cocky 'superhero' attitude, yet instead of revolving an entire readable playstyle around that you've shoved a half-cannon half-hammer in his hands pretty much making him a very unreadable/high burden of knowledge character as you really have to know what the hell he all has in his kit (and god, Jayce has a lot of effects in his kit)

With the removal of Lee Sin's safeguard (pretty superherolike, I dash onto you, shielding you and aiding you!) in Lee Sin Redesign and Shen's pretty much superherolike E (I tank this, I'm the superhero saving the day!) and ultimate, this is Ryan's placeholder of previous Shen and Lee Sin abilities:

Zeon/Jayce, the Defender of Tomorrow (http://lolchampdesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/02/wip-zeon-golden-aegis.html)- Readable superhero playstyle!

I hope you really like all of this, Morello, to me it all makes sense, hence I fell in love with Ryan's work as soon as I bumped into him..

3. Similar like Jayce, Orianna: what really could be a readable 'Clockwork Ballerina' playstyle she ends up having this pretty lifeless ball that does tons of stuff, being pretty abstract and thus unreadable. (Her 'ballerina' part are pretty much just animations only)

Orianna Redesign (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/03/champion-redesign-orianna-lady-of.html) - playstyle and kit that completely revolves around being that 'Clockwork Ballerina'

Luka, the Void Tamer (http://lolchampdesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/02/wip-orion-void-tamer-alt-boy-and-his.html) is Ryan's Orianna placeholder - pretty much having her entire current kit with slight adjustments, not only making more sense and thus more readable and thematically tied, also making the design feel more alive as it's not just a ball you are commanding here, but a cute little beast as if it's a puppy with an enthausiastic young owner!

4. Current Ashe, her 'bird-ability' has less to do with that bow and arrows. Ashe Redesign (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-ashe-frost-archer.html) is all about being that frost archer, drawing back that bowstring and hitting people precisely due to good aiming.

Like literally with Ashe Redesign (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-ashe-frost-archer.html) - 'No really, put that apple on your head.'

With Fizz Redesign (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-fizz-tidal-trickster.html) - Pushed his theme further, making his shark a more visceral part of his kit which really sells the concept of 'This dude comes from the water' a bit more.

Current Blitzcrank is pretty unreadable due to the fact he's pretty much just a robot or 'steamgolem' - there's not a whole lot you can get out of that and you wouldn't expect his most iconic ability right from an instant: Rocket Grab.

Also: Blitzcrank's kit has turned out to be pretty problematic due to the fact it punishes way too hard and pretty much having a fairly low risk and high reward, but I'd say that the most frustrating and toxic part of his kit is where he runs up to you with massive speed due to his W and you are trying to juke the hell out of him because you are expecting a grab, but in the end all he was trying to do is get to you for that punch knock-up locking you down even longer and having a more guarenteed recipe of succes grabbing you afterwards.

More or less, he rushes up to you way too fast while he already has a pretty fast traveling spell that drags you to him.

With the removal of Ashe's scouting bird, Fizz's current ultimate and it characteristically being more readable to put the 'rocketgrab' ability on another character I'd like to present to you:

Ronan, the Fisherman (http://lolchampdesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/original-champion-ronan-fisherman.html) - the dude that patiently waits to strike with his 'Net' aka previous rocketgrab, the fisherman that sends his seagull to scout an area (previous ashe E) and the fisherman that uses bait to call some beasts from the depths (previous Fizz ult)

Hopefully making all of the designs mentioned more readable and thematically tied, Ronan also a more readable and thematically tied champion, hopefully not problematic.

At last, this is pretty important:

What I really hope you acknowledge, Morello, that Ryan is pushing proportions for the greater good.
Looking at the responses we've already had from you in this thread already I feel it essentially boiled down to you saying 'we don't push this as much as you want to push it' which is fine as it's just a different direction you are taking, but I hope you realize that it has it's consequences.

The more thematically tied champions are, the stronger you sell the concept of the champion making the champion feel more alive, more awesome - hence he pushes this for good reason.

The more readable champions are, the more accessible the game becomes, making the game even more appealing for another way larger audience as players are more easily able to buy into this world called 'League of Legends'. Probably dragging League of Legends as an E-Sports even further, as stuff makes more sense, as Zyra now quickly bursts down opponents from 100 to 0% while with the Redesign she gets to characteristically grow plants, grow an entire garden on the map, heck my mom would enjoy to see that without even knowing how the game really works, she'd understand what this Nature Mage would be doing right from an instant.

I already have the feeling we might see League on television in a few years but I feel that the more readable the game is, the even larger audience you will attract.

And then at last, I hope you realize that the more thematically you push a champion you automatically make them as distinctive and unique as they can. Currently with League there is this 'Why pick X over Y' mentality as I feel pretty much every champion works in a lot of similar ways, pretty much like Zyra being more of 'another good teamfighting mage/support' rather than the ultimate Nature Mage that offers her own real unique strategy to the game.

That's the most important part - about every Redesign has to offer something and is so distinctive that as long as you build a good composition around it, it'll work. It'll be strong. It'll be viable.

I have played over 3000 games of League of Legends and I can safely say the game is becoming less and less fun for me gradually, not only because I have to deal with these designs that could be way more themetically tied, readable, awesome or some designs that could be way less anti-fun, but also due to the fact the entire way League is currently played is pretty generic as it boils down to:

'Let's screw the enemy team the same way they'll try to screw us over' aka straight up fighting with little flavor and variety, hence I like to see the very rare and ocasional specific/dedicated poke or stall-comps (and even they are not that specific and different as much as they could be either), they're different and have more of an strategic edge.

What I love about all of the Redesigns as a whole and the impact it'd have on the game, every Redesign would be able to be put into either of these three brackets:

-Aggressive, straight up damage/aggresive strengths, think of Kennen, Malphite
-Control, champions with flexibility and a more versatile type of zone-control, think of Redesign Zyra or Twisted Fate
-Defensive, champions with a more fortified type of zone-control, think of Redesign Maokai Redesign Heimerdinger

This opens up a lot of different compositions and strategies making the game way more engaging, dynamic and visceral as there are so much combinations and type of strategies rather than the current, pretty stale feeling (especially after 3000 games): 'Let's kill the others and then push towers or go for another objective'

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth here and force you to think 'LoL2' should immediately be a thing, I hope I've just made sure this is interesting and shouldn't be taken lightly

From a dude who got us completely:

Originally Posted by UnbearableBears
ItemGuy's Lol2 seems way more accessible. Accessibility is always something a game should strive for and ItemsGuy's reworks really do make a champ play like they should.

Lol2 seems more fun than Lol1. The amount of diversity in the champions kits is astounding. GD always cries they want champs to be more unique whenever a new champ is released - ItemsGuy's reworks do exactly that.

Each champion in lol2 have their own unique play style and strengths and weaknesses.

Lol2 improves the competitive scene by making it more accessible to viewers since viewers will be able to tell what a champion can and will do just by looking at them. This is paramount if League of Legends ever wants to become a full fledged spectator sport. If lol ever wants viewers outside of people who play the game, this issue will need to be addressed. On the plus side, improving accessibility will make the game more open to new players (which will be bound to happen if lol became a 'full-fledged spectator sport')

Additionally, lol2 improves the competitive scene by making champion section and strategy much more important than 'pick the op champions and wreck balls'. Many more distinctive strategies will be available in lol2

Sorry if this all seemed sloppy. It's hard to edit when you type from your phone. Great work both of you, especially ItemsGuy. I wish you the best and really hope you do get the opportunity to work at Riot

I'm really asking for your understanding and opinion, you're pretty much the only person on this planet that could do this for us. What do you think of all of this? Is Ryan Melley at least interesting enough to reconsider?

I'm keeping two fingers crossed while happily and patiently looking forward to your response.

EDIT: I could go on and on, this'll be the last ones I'll include eventhough there's way more work he has done: Leona Redesign (http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/champion-redesign-leona-radiant-dawn.html) revolves around that huge shield. 'OLD LEONA PLAYSTYLE WHERE?' Judge Marcus, the Arbiter (http://lolchampdesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/wip-judge-marcus-arbiter.html) - initiating paladin for the win! Right?

And originally he had Urgot on the cutting board, but found a new, more thematic and readable way to cover his playstyle - Nha'Hazzex, the Void Hivemind (http://lolchampdesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/03/wip-nhahazzex-void-hivemind.html) - placeholder of Urgot's current playstyle.

And then Urgot, the Fungal Scourge (http://lolchampdesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/03/wip-urgot-fungal-scourge.html) - to keep his name and 'ugliness', tied him to a more readable and thematic direction: Fungus, shrooms, they spread!

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Senior Member


SirLapse here.

I've done quite a bunch of research from what you've given me (and a couple of other observations), and I'd like to thank you for that. I'm not going to mention numbers like I tried to before, it'll only come out in my favor (due to unavailability of testing) and isn't constructive enough to say that a redesign is heavily flawed (although in some cases it can be, but not in a game like this).

For designers, there is a key element that you have to consider every time you make a new skill: visual representation of the effects.This is something that I actually had a problem with but never mentioned due to thinking it was minor, but some of them are quite noticeable.

To name some:
Spelleater from Lulu's kit: Even though this can show a status effect for it, how will you really determine that it'll block an ability? Not to mention that this is an effect that has never been installed to the game. It looks to be one of those that is purely a burden of knowledge.
Mantra effect off of Karma's Q: Same deal. I mean it's fairly easy to determine that there is a seal on a character, but to make it distinct after the Mantra bonus is another thing. It also introduces an unavailable game mechanic, though I'm not sure if it'll be possible (or balanced) in the future.

Then there goes the misc. problem of how effective should some skills be. If I find more through paging the redesigns, I'll put them down, but for now:
Nocturne's Duskbringer: Is this meant to work against people who use Flash, Kha'Zix's leap, Renekton's dash, etc.? Or is it just meant to be a wall-pass mechanic from assaulting across a gap? It's a pretty strong mechanic, so that leads to another question: will it also work on areas where Flash cannot work (due to the slightly higher range)?

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Relaunching this thread - was trying to get an answer on the post above, but from the looks of it it seems that isn't going to happen after ~2 months of trying to get someone at it.

Also - with the entire Trundle Rework thing going on and people more and more realizing the importance of theming and readability, I guess this'll be good opportunity to perhaps 'enlighten' more people in terms of League's current flaws.

Onto Sirlapse!

Spelleater from Lulu's kit: Even though this can show a status effect for it, how will you really determine that it'll block an ability? Not to mention that this is an effect that has never been installed to the game. It looks to be one of those that is purely a burden of knowledge.

Lulu has a more abstract theme, especially in her current state 'she just does stuff' (shooting two magic beams that just slow you for the sake of slowing)

Lulu Redesign is more readable because the entire design revolves around Pix - so first and foremost: Where Pix is - that's where the action'll happen, much like Orianna with her ball - you get that instantly.

The animations for the ability? Pix grows larger and starts to glow way more? Through good particle work this stuff is all easily achievable - and yes, also uniqueness plays a role when it comes to readability, it's correct there isn't any ability right now that works like this, this makes it even more memorable.

Mantra effect off of Karma's Q: Same deal. I mean it's fairly easy to determine that there is a seal on a character, but to make it distinct after the Mantra bonus is another thing.

Careful! Just like current Orianna and Lulu Redesign, the entire kit revolves around the Crest aka the floating Taijitu.

I feel the particle work here would be quite obvious here as well - Mantra Q would not just redirect some damage - no, you see a huge spellshield particle which consumes any impact and when it blocks the ability, the spell shield (aka blue glow) forms a projectile and launches back at the target from where it came from.

That's how I imagine it - at least : )

But the main point - it's very much achievable.

It also introduces an unavailable game mechanic, though I'm not sure if it'll be possible (or balanced) in the future.

See disclaimer - new game, new engine - would be possible.

Concerning balance: You can bait those Mantra Q's, much like you can bait Sivir to use her spellshield incorrectly. The entire point of Karma's kit; redirecting stuff you throw at the target who has the crest - there's obvious counterplay to that.

Nocturne's Duskbringer: Is this meant to work against people who use Flash, Kha'Zix's leap, Renekton's dash, etc.? Or is it just meant to be a wall-pass mechanic from assaulting across a gap? It's a pretty strong mechanic, so that leads to another question: will it also work on areas where Flash cannot work (due to the slightly higher range)?

When Nocturne hits a target that is isolated with his Q he'll travel over any impassable terrain as long as he is on the Duskbringer trail.

Asking me 'if it also will work on areas where Flash cannot work' is a pretty dumb question, no offense : P

Nocturne isolated Q is all about chasing; if the target he just Q'd on isn't able to flash over a wall - he isn't able to follow up and fly over that terrain randomly, he has to stay on the trail, which means, Nocturne can only fly over terrain if the target he Q'd managed to go over the terrain, whether that is current Nidalee Pounce, current Renekton Slice and Dice or Flash.

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Don't really have the time right now to be updating our Redesign section on the first page of this thread, I'll do that later that later - the next following days.

Have to add the following Redesigns: Quinn, Jarvan, Darius, Jax, Zilean, Talon, Orianna, Rengar, Nautilus, Karma, Soraka, ZAC, Xin, Shaco, Lissandra.

Have to add the following placeholders: Nha'Hazzex (urgot playstyle placeholder), Urgot (ugliness and urgot's name placeholder), Luka, the Void Tamer (Orianna playstyle placeholder(, Judge Marcus (Leona playstyle placeholder), Faye (current Evelynn playstyle placeholder), Evelynn (name and appearance placeholder of Evelynn), Hakolin, the Bonecrafter (Mordekaiser passive placeholder) and probably some more I've forgotten.

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If you need help updating anything let me know, I can try to help.

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If you need help updating anything let me know, I can try to help.

No problem - I'm adding you on League if I haven't already, by the way.

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... from op post, they are taking changes to leona into consideration... if they make changes to my leona i am done giving this game money.