Shyvana. New Jungle same problem.

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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Overall she is a very nice, fun to play and relatively powerful champion with 1 glaring flaw to me. I still feel in advent of many of these new things such as items and jungle. Shyvana has been falling off from her initial release. Burnout is exceptionally easy to see early (Telegraphed) to avoid initiations if she lanes making her worthless top lane as most Toppers have ranged-harass that sticks and her. Tradeoff is quite weak as Fireball is built for Shyvana to then get Melee hits in, but around minions without being glaringly obvious that is quite hard to do at times making Shyv usually the loser of a Tradeoff.

As said fireball feels weak unless you really dump points in it leaving her vulnerable in other areas. Having Shyv near you is a BAD thing and if you are dumping to harass with fireball... you don't have that effect. Her ranged harass just doesn't stick and is relatively easy to avoid.

My suggestion is this.

Fireball(Human):
Applies Magic Damage (add a small bit to current values and keep AP Scaling... or make it Scale on AD so it builds with her). Marks a target for Flaming Strike and reduces their armor by 15% (same as is).

New skill: Flaming Strike. While in Human form Shyvana can use Flaming Strike on a target who is marked with Fireball (occupies same skill slot) When activated Shyvana will charge at the target dealing (no idea here for numbers maybe just re-apply Fireballs full damage) to target and 50% to those nearby during her charge and those within 50 units of her impact point.

The reason or thought behind this idea is to give her a real initiation skill in Human form without bleeding power to her dragon form which is solid. Burnout is not an initiation skill it is for dodging skill-shots and causing AE damage, the speed-buff is not enough to make it an initiation without the enemy having poor positioning or being stunned already. Keep Flame Strike also has a limited range of 200-300 units preventing gigantic
charges

Responding to Feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KitStylus View Post
Shyvana has no Gap closers except her ultimate and is not very reliable. Movement speed is great but your competing against people who can dash and flash plus know how to position is still pretty challenging. A
This is the goal of this suggested change, she is not viable against over half the champions especially the newer ones. Her 50% movespeed buff falls off exceptionally fast that it is just a telegraphed initiation early game. This change is aimed at that. Burnout already falls off very fast so even late-game it is not the best gap-closer. Her kit severely lacks one as a Bruiser/Melee. the 200-300 unit range is an estimate upon further looking would make more sense for it to have the same range as Fireball does (I think about 420 units).

In S3 she has lost much of her Jungle Edge she had in S2, this aims to make her more gank-friendly thus she won't choke in the Jungle. Her kit is very fun to use but it no longer is very good considering what Champions are coming out. As said by others most of her normal build items have all been nerfed. She needs a buff herself to make up for that to keep her more viable. I Understand that champions are rotated on Tier Lists but she got hit unfairly hard I think for such a fun champion style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFanciestBard View Post
Her flamebreath is powerful because of the armor shred and bonus damage on autoattack. It isnt intended to be a ranged harass tool. Since shyvana has such high sustained damage giving her a gapcloser outside of ult would make her borderline if not entirely op. .
It isn't a harass the issue is no intelligent player will melee-engage if they have a ranged harass which most Top-Laners do... except Shyvana. She is very similar to Lee in that she can be kited. Except Lee you have to also avoid a ranged-gap closer, this would only bring her up to Lee's level of trade offs and actually make for a lot of fun. Most champions will win an exchange with her because players know she is easy as hell to kite and quick-trades are her weakness... which many, many champions can do. She has been slowly falling off since release as players learned to deal with her, the kit is not a hard one to counter unlike most champions the rule is "don't let her in your face" and you win pretty much. I aim to resolve that without really changing her power too much. Most champions can snare/stun her early game and avoid her jumps as such much like you would do vs Lee or Xin. Flame Strike would not overpower her it would just make her more mobile as a Bruiser which is a key point.


If you don't agree with my suggestion perhaps post your own idea as to something that would keep Shyvana "fun" but not make her OP though the above suggestion would not make her OP it would make her a Skirmisher with an initiation (Flame Strike) and an escape/stick tool (Burnout) very much like Riven has except not as powerful. You have to land Flamebreath to use Flame Strike and FB is fairly easy to dodge in Human Form allowing Shyvana to still be kitable. This change does not effect Dragon Form at all. Though I think she needs her 5 Armor and MR back on her ult from S2, the damage output has increased and she has lost that innate tankyness she was known for.


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Morgana Forever

Member

01-16-2013

Her flamebreath is powerful because of the armor shred and bonus damage on autoattack. It isnt intended to be a ranged harass tool. Since shyvana has such high sustained damage giving her a gapcloser outside of ult would make her borderline if not entirely op.

Generally when you top as her you harass them when they come for last hits or initiate on you. Think of flamebreath as another melee range ability to get an idea of how to use it in lane. Very few champs can win an extended trade with shyvana in the early levels. Every champ has a weakness and shyvanas is being kited, ranged harass, and strong engage/disengage before your damage can ramp up.


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Mogs01gt

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Senior Member

01-16-2013

Her kit is not horrible with all of the changes made in s3. She probably needs to be scaling with purely ap since she does magic dmg.


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Arceolis

Member

01-16-2013

Back off my Shyvanna bro. If your having trouble with her maybe play more of her. She is perfect way she is.


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Phoe Dragon

Senior Member

01-16-2013

I'm a big Shyvana player as well. this may not be the solution, but I agree that Flame Breath needs something different. For all those happy with her, you wouldn't mind a buff so don't complain. I just feel like it doesn't do much and it is easy to dodge, for it is a rather slow projectile. Maybe it doesn't have to be a poking tool, but I feel like she succumbs to pokers for she really has nothing to get back if they have good mobility. She needs to get up close and personal to actually do damage because her E is half utility and a little damage combined in a skillshot. I feel like it needs some attention, but not quite this.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoe Dragon View Post
For all those happy with her, you wouldn't mind a buff so don't complain.
For all of us who are happy with her right now, we understand that a buff would require a nerf, either at the same time or in the future, because she is fine in her current state.

I won't complain about receiving buffs, but I will be very quick to discredit buff ideas because there is nothing Shyvana needs to be balanced--she already IS balanced.


And to the actual suggestion...holy ****. Seriously? She has a 50% move speed steroid that deals AoE damage, one of the longest dash gap closers in the game, and now you want to add a THIRD gap closer to her kit, this one being basically Vi's ultimate without the CC immunity? Holy. ****ing. ****.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estred Shantile View Post
Keep Flame Strike also has a limited range of 200-300 units preventing gigantic charges
EDIT: Now that I read this...it's just silly. Your Burnout is already keeping you in range for as long as your E debuffs them, and if they actually flash away then you can't use it to keep up. Doesn't change it from being broken when she already has insane mobility.


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KitStylus

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Shyvana has no Gap closers except her ultimate and is not very reliable. Movement speed is great but your competing against people who can dash and flash plus know how to position is still pretty challenging. A lot of the items Shyvana use also have been nerfed in S3 and she has no passive. I think she could use a little stats buff, her ultimate could use more tankyness since it stands as powerful as Nidalee's cougar but with a time limit. I would love her to have Irelia's passive aswell even tough that would be going a bit far, maybe some bonus tenacity?


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KitStylus View Post
Shyvana has no Gap closers except her ultimate. Movement speed is great but your competing agaisnt people who can dash and flash.
Name for me exactly which champions can dash/flash AND have a move speed buff, without using Ghost or Flash. I don't care, unless you're TF, Kassadin or Ahri you're not out-dashing my +50% move speed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitStylus View Post
A lot of the items Shyvana use also have been nerfed in S3 and she has no passive.
Frozen Mallet - Buffed
Mercury Treads - Same as before
Tiamat - Buffed and given an upgrade
Sunfire Cape - Recently buffed
Hexdrinker/Maw - Hexdrinker nerfed, Maw is same as before
Aegis of the Legion - Buffed and given an upgrade

I could keep going listing, but all you really need to know is that the only items I found nerfed that Shyvana uses are Zeke's Herald (the loss of AS on it) and Wit's End (lost 10 MR).
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitStylus View Post
I think she could use a little stats buff, her ultimate could use more tankyness since it stands as powerful as Nidalee's cougar but with a time limit. I would love her to have Irelia's passive even tough that would be going a bit far.
Shyvana's freaking powerful as she is. It's 10/15/20 Armor/MR at all times, then doubled during Dragon form, so it's stronger than Nidalee's. And Irelia's passive is Irelia's for a reason; only she's really balanced around it. Giving that away to anyone else would be broken as ****.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Sounds like Lee Sin's Q?

Why not just make it a pass-through skill shot?

So (human) hits everything in a line and (dragon) hits everything in a cone.


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Axhliay

Senior Member

01-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMyBassCannon View Post
Name for me exactly which champions can dash/flash AND have a move speed buff, without using Ghost or Flash. I don't care, unless you're TF, Kassadin or Ahri you're not out-dashing my +50% move speed.

Frozen Mallet - Buffed
Mercury Treads - Same as before
Tiamat - Buffed and given an upgrade
Sunfire Cape - Recently buffed
Hexdrinker/Maw - Hexdrinker nerfed, Maw is same as before
Aegis of the Legion - Buffed and given an upgrade

I could keep going listing, but all you really need to know is that the only items I found nerfed that Shyvana uses are Zeke's Herald (the loss of AS on it) and Wit's End (lost 10 MR).

Shyvana's freaking powerful as she is. It's 10/15/20 Armor/MR at all times, then doubled during Dragon form, so it's stronger than Nidalee's. And Irelia's passive is Irelia's for a reason; only she's really balanced around it. Giving that away to anyone else would be broken as ****.
I'm sorry, but you are still thinking of Shyvana in the sense of Season 2.

She has lost her ability to duel alot of champions that she could in the season 2 jungle. Her clears are very fast, but as soon as someone comes into her jungle, she will die. She can't keep up with the pace that the other junlgers are setting.

The jungle at the moment is Gank or starve. if you farm, you are getting less gold, less exp than ganking. Shyvana is a poor competetive pick atm. And that will not change unless she does.


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