Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Thresh Quality-of-Life Feedback

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

KesslerCOIL

Senior Member

01-15-2013

To me, the only real problem i have with thresh is his W.
Its very difficult to click on when near minions and in general, my teammates and i often end up attacking something or just moving next to it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ExaltedVanguard

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Quote:
CertainlyT:
Good question, though I am not interested in discussing this in terms of specific champions -- too many variables involved in each.

I'll turn the question around: why do basic attacks (the core offensive action in our game) force the attacker to stand still? The answer (in my opinion) lies in the fact that offensive actions should bear meaningful costs. This makes them more interesting. Olaf's Q is a great mechanic because you stop to cast it -- if you hit, you gain ground on the opponent; if you miss, you lose ground.

I completely agree with this, but there's also a time and place for each cost, too. And I won't try to list every champion with an issue, but as long as we're on the topic of Olaf and Shyvana....

Olaf's Q makes you stop moving, but it still feels great to use and makes sense (gameplay wise). It does decent damage. You're throwing a giant axe. I couldn't throw a giant axe on the run. More that that, its risk/reward is very clear to the player. In your very first game with Olaf, you realize that, "Hey, I have to hit my Q to chase someone, but if I miss, I waste my time."

In other words, it's very clear to the player, even just reading the skills, that missing your Q has a distinct cost. I need to hit that axe. If I don't hit the axe, they can get away.

Shyvana's E is one of those skills that's not so clear-cut. It's not a matter of if I hit it. It's a matter of when I hit it. And it's deceptive. The cost for using this ability how it looks like you're supposed to (just reading the description) is a failed gank. Instead, you're supposed to use it much later in the fight (which reading the skill, doesn't make sense). This obviously leads to a very awkward skill.

Reading the skill as a new player, you think it's supposed to be used before any of your other attacks. You want that armor shred. You want that passive proc. You come screaming out of the FoW and launch a fireball. ...and they get away before you deal any real damage.

When you gank in a real game, you generally have to gap-close with W and start with your Q to prevent it from dropping, then go ahead and hit your E now that your on top of them.

If you play Shyvana for quite a bit, you understand this and it's not hard to work around. However it's very unclear to anyone who hasn't really played her, and very counter-intuitive. Even having played her a ton, this still feels bad, even though it does work. There's more than one way to fix it I know, but it feels like the best way is to just let her move while casting it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Artania

Senior Member

01-15-2013

To help with the soul collection, I've noticed when you throw out his lantern it collects souls there as well as on his person. It helps alot in those times you need to collect souls near your opponents.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Taikero

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Quote:
CertainlyT:
Great feedback! These are all intended weaknesses.

Giving power is not quality of life. Quality of life is "It is easy to forget that Frost Shot is on so I sometimes burn a ton of mana on creeps". Power is "I want my spells to have longer ranges/to not require me to be in danger to use them/to have shorter cast times/to all auto-combo/etc."


CertainlyT, you are correct, in some of my feedback I did make some reference to possible improvements to weak points. Some of these would add power, others would just make the champion feel or operate better (which I suppose could be considered power, though I consider it poor quality-of-life if a champion's kit is clunky and doesn't flow well).

For the instance of power specific to laning and Thresh's supposed intended purpose (top lane if not jungle or support), I feel like Thresh's laning is weak if he is all alone and has nobody to help cover him while he dives for souls. You mentioned this is probably intentional, however this will make it rather difficult for Thresh to be considered viable as a top laner unless he can reliably pick up a certain balanced percentage of all souls that drop (e.g. perhaps 70% is enough for Thresh to remain even with his opponent's armor progression).

This situation only occurs in solo top lane, as a jungle or support Thresh has more protected opportunity to pick up souls. As a result, playing Thresh top lane is going to be very difficult unless something is adjusted (whether it's soul pickup radius, soul life duration, or some other mechanic that makes sense), and changing how you pick up souls won't change jungle in any meaningful way and will impact bottom lane much less than top lane.

Artania above mentioned that you can apparently use the lantern to pick up souls. Perhaps that is enough to assist in top lane when necessary, but I'd have to test that out myself to be sure. Either way if using Thresh's Lantern to pickup souls is possible and it's not in the tooltip, it should be in the tooltip to help out players new to Thresh.

Another option to make it easier for Thresh to lane (though this would have other implications throughout the entire game) would be to increase his movement speed from its base of 335. This would certainly add power, and it seems that traditionally ranged characters haven't received higher than 340 base movement speed. I would be frankly more wary of this change than something more specific/passive such as a duration increase or range increase to soul pickup.


As for quality-of-life, or perhaps an "exchange of power" if you choose to view it that way, Thresh's Q currently hits minions and monsters. This provides power in the Jungle for escaping as another poster mentioned (and potentially in lane if over-extended toward the opponent's tower in order to make an escape using the opponent's minions), but also creates frustration when trying to land the skill on an opposing Champion.

If Thresh's Q only hit champions, it would take away some mobility power in favor of killing/control power against enemy champions. To me this exchange of power is more about changing how the champion feels when playing rather than granting or removing power directly, as adjusting numbers would.


What I'm getting at is I feel there are a number of ways to make a Champion's abilities feel better, in order of increasing impact. All may be used to increase or decrease power as well as to improve or intentionally stop ability flow for a champion under the intended circumstances.

  • Tier 1 - Adjust damage/healing/shield/percentage numbers up or down. Simplest form of adjustment that does not change the way the Champion plays much, merely increasing or decreasing the effectiveness of abilities when used successfully (e.g. in the case of a skillshot, if you miss, the potential damage is completely wasted and it does not matter whether your ability deals 1 damage or 1,000,000 damage at that point)..
  • Tier 2 - Adjust range, spread, area-of-effect, delay, cast time, windup, animation speed, mana cost, health cost, or other impactful areas that do not fundamentally change the ability but change how responsive, easy to land (if a skillshot/AoE effect), or easy to use the ability is to make it feel better for the player. I believe this is where most counterplay lives and as such Tier 2 changes are more about feel than hard numbers.
  • Tier 3 - Adjust fundamental aspects of an ability. This can include whether or not it hits minions, champions, or monsters. It can also include whether the ability applies on-hit effects, refreshes on kills/assists, is usable while moving or must be cast while stopped or channeled, is a targeted, skillshot, area, or on-next-hit ability, or other factors that don't just change how effective or responsive the ability is, but completely change how the ability may potentially be used. Tier 3 changes must be considered carefully as they may conflict with a Champion's theme, lore, or other aspects that define what the Champion "should" do as part of the "fantasy" of playing that Champion.

In overview of the changes I proposed for Thresh, and with the disclaimer that I am not asking for any of these, I merely have proposed them as potential ways to make Thresh feel better than he does currently (some may add power, some may not). I believe it goes without saying that should a higher tier change be put in place that adds power, it is entirely feasible to apply a Tier 1 (numbers) change to compensate and reduce power to keep Thresh balanced.


Passive changes

Tier 2 - Increase soul life duration. Smallest passive change that doesn't inherently make it easier for Thresh to acquire souls, only grants him more time to try to.
Tier 2 - Increase soul pickup radius. Larger passive change that reduces risk for Thresh in acquiring souls, but he will still be punished for tardiness.


Q changes

Tier 2 - Require Thresh's secondary pull to at minimum pull the enemy target to the outer boundary of where his R could be (if Thresh decided to activate it).
Tier 2 - Slightly reduce the windup time on Q. to make it a bit easier to land.
Tier 2 - Additional Proposed Change - Slightly increase the speed/animation time of the Q while in the air. The windup remains the same but the projectile travels faster to the target. If a player does not react to the windup sound/animation, they are more likely to be hit by Thresh's Q.
Tier 3 - Thresh's Q only hits champions. This makes Q easier to land on champions (particularly in lane) but removes interesting possibilities around minions and monsters.


W change

Tier 2 - Slight radius increase to shield application area. Does not affect shield strength or duration, only affects how close an ally must be to the lantern to receive the shield.


E change

Tier 2 - Increase cast range of E, keeping knockback effect the same. Makes the effect easier to land but does not increase the power once landed.



I don't expect any of these changes to go into effect, and certainly not all of them. I do feel however that Thresh's kit needs some polishing, because as he stands right now, the ability ideas are great, but some of them (particularly his Q) could really stand to be nudged in a direction that helps his kit flow a bit better rather than segmenting itself because it can't agree on what it wants to do reliably and instead feels unreliable in general (as far as combos are concerned).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Artania

Senior Member

01-18-2013

Some very well thought out points, and while I don't really know where Thresh sits powerwise, I personally would love to see a little bit smoother gameplay. Of course it might just be I need more practice with him.
Taikero had a good point about the lantern's tooltip should be able to reflect its ability to collect souls. Though it is implied as it is what technically collects them when he walks by anyways.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ruduen

Senior Member

01-19-2013

The one QoL change I'd like to request is to make his W self-castable. It would make it easier for him to use his shield on himself in a pinch. I also agree in that the tooltip should be updated to reflect the fact that his lantern can collect souls.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sven Stryker

Junior Member

01-19-2013

If I had to change one thing that affects the player but not the champion balance, I'd reverse the direction of Thresh's E.

QoL Reasoning: When you want to pull champions toward you, you are likely going aggressive and aiming towards them for movement and other abilities. When you want to push champions away from you, you are likely backing off to peel or running away and need to create distance while aiming your cursor away from them to move.
When someone is coming towards you, your required firing arc thins and they are easier to hit. If they are in melee range, you likely don't want to pull them, but it's easy to aim away from them if that was a push. When they are far away and running, you want more accuracy on the pull than a push.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BAM SpiceWeasel

Senior Member

01-19-2013

Quote:
CertainlyT:
Good question, though I am not interested in discussing this in terms of specific champions -- too many variables involved in each.

I'll turn the question around: why do basic attacks (the core offensive action in our game) force the attacker to stand still? The answer (in my opinion) lies in the fact that offensive actions should bear meaningful costs. This makes them more interesting. Olaf's Q is a great mechanic because you stop to cast it -- if you hit, you gain ground on the opponent; if you miss, you lose ground.


Seriously? All grabs in the game (blitz naut darius) all have cast timers sure, fair enough but theirs don't take 2s from initial cast to make it to their max range. If your chasing someone and try and cast your q while the are in the middle of the line range indicator ie like this:

You=======them=======>

they can walk (with roughly 390ms) form there out of range of it in the time it takes to cast. Please explain to us how this isn't a stupidly excessive delay? I mean seriously, if your chasing someone the farthest away you can grab them from is just out side the range of your e (if they keep running), and that's if they don't take 1 step sideways in the 1s wind up time.

Quote:
Sven Stryker:
If I had to change one thing that affects the player but not the champion balance, I'd reverse the direction of Thresh's E.

QoL Reasoning: When you want to pull champions toward you, you are likely going aggressive and aiming towards them for movement and other abilities. When you want to push champions away from you, you are likely backing off to peel or running away and need to create distance while aiming your cursor away from them to move.
When someone is coming towards you, your required firing arc thins and they are easier to hit. If they are in melee range, you likely don't want to pull them, but it's easy to aim away from them if that was a push. When they are far away and running, you want more accuracy on the pull than a push.


Also, make this^ happen so you can actually combo properly -.-'


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ruduen

Senior Member

01-20-2013

Quote:
Sven Stryker:
If I had to change one thing that affects the player but not the champion balance, I'd reverse the direction of Thresh's E.

QoL Reasoning: When you want to pull champions toward you, you are likely going aggressive and aiming towards them for movement and other abilities. When you want to push champions away from you, you are likely backing off to peel or running away and need to create distance while aiming your cursor away from them to move.
When someone is coming towards you, your required firing arc thins and they are easier to hit. If they are in melee range, you likely don't want to pull them, but it's easy to aim away from them if that was a push. When they are far away and running, you want more accuracy on the pull than a push.


It may make for easier comboing, but it's incredibly unintuitive. "I want them to move in this direction, so I need to click in... the opposite direction?" I'm not quite sure if it's worth that trade-off.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ploki122

Senior Member

01-20-2013

The one thing I'm not exactly sure of is... Do you guys actually expect Blitzcrank?

Sure, his windup is long, but it suppresses for nearly 2s, on top of actually jerking it your way.
Sure, it can hit minions, otherwise it would be by far the best support, and you can still use it to dash into melee range with minions or dash away with monsters.

Sure, the shield range is small, but you can get your friend out of sticky situation, and use it to pull souls.

Sure, the knock range is small on E, but... it really is small...

Also... why make it impossible to hit more than 1 ult wall?


123