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I've played 500 games as Tryndamere and here is what I think.

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Critkeeper

Senior Member

01-13-2013

I've played around 500 games as Tryndamere, and I am an average player at around 1200 elo. I've played against skilled players climbing their way to the top, and against poor ones falling to the bottom. I've played him in every position and against nearly every champ.

Here is how you fix Tryndamere's problems:


1. remove the bonus fury on critical strikes and vastly buff his fury generation from all sources.

2. vastly increase his fury decay and decrease the delay before fury begins to decay.

3. make his bloodlust heal scale with percentage health missing rather than fury, still consuming fury.

4. make undying rage last for as long as tryndamere has fury, make him only immune to death from damage dealt by champions and minions, and seriously reduce its cooldown.




1.



Currently tryndamere with full fury can easily maintain his fury through last hit critting. A tryndamere with no fury cannot build or maintain fury anywhere nearly as easily because he has no chance to crit without fury. If riot balances with the assumption that tryndamere will have full fury throughout the laning phase, then a tryndamere without full fury is a pushover and is so weak he probably will not be able to build fury without being harassed to death and pushed out of lane. If the balance assumption is the opposite then tryndamere will be decent without fury and overbearing with it. This is essentially one of the biggest reasons tryndamere has a snowbally lane.



2.



Tryndamere is held back (riot refuses to buff him) because when he is doing well enough to maintain fury, regardless how that came to happen, then he is almost overbearing. If Tryndamere is slightly ahead he can magnify that advantage through fury, and at the same time reduce the difficulty required to maintain that advantage. If Tryndamere is going to receive buffs that make his generally stronger even when not ahead then there needs to be counterplay to him when he is ahead.



3.



This skill is supposed to help Tryndamere bounce back into lane when he is doing poorly, or getting zoned from minions. In reality it is most powerful when he is already ahead and doesn't need the advantage, making him even more overbearing when ahead. The skill is balanced around that, so the base value is pathetic and it doesn't do its intended purpose. Riot doesn't necessarily like that a well placed ignite will kill Tryndamere after Undying rage automatically even if Tryndamere heals regardless of whether Tryndamere managed to escape or not, but buffing the heal is out of the question because of how precarious Tryndamere's kit already is.



4.



The delay before losing fury should be about 1 second, and it should take around 3 hits to fill it completely. It should take about 2 seconds after the delay to lose it all. After Tryndamere uses undying rage he will simply survive for as long as he can stick to a target. Being disabled or merely kited for 3 consecutive seconds will stop Tryndamere's undying rage. Tryndamere will die from monster damage so he can't solo baron or dragon with just this ultimate. Tryndamere will die from tower damage so this ultimate will not hold him back (riot won't use it as an excuse to not buff him) by merit of it being used to snowball him in situations where his opponent has no counterplay options in lane if Tryndamere is somehow ahead (how that happened or how difficult it is is obviously almost irrelevant in riots point of view) due to Tryndamere's kit already being precarious and an ultimate like this, pretty much married to the identity of Tryndamere, is designed to push him over the edge.

Currently so much holds Tryndamere back that he can't properly carry in his short 5 seconds of lifetime. Tryndamere used to have a 7 second ultimate and was a veritable carry. At the end of the day a carry simply needs to be able to do large amounts of damage safely, and that safety needs conditions that the enemy can work around to kill you if they use team work, and which can be reinforced by team work on your own team. Tryndamere lasts 5 seconds period, team work or not. Tryndamere ought to last for time that depends on team work between his team and the opponent team. This would give him something like a lesser late game Sion effect (who can legitimately carry as a melee champ in the traditional sense but was not designed to melee carry and who has no innate skills to help him play that way before amassing the tremendous gold cost of a carry build), alive while hitting something, dead after a few seconds of not hitting something.



I've given some particular number just to convey the idea. The actual numbers required to make it balanced can only be discovered with iterated testing.


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click d or f

Member

01-13-2013

ya he op


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The Cookie

Member

01-13-2013

tl dr
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2999298


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gentlemenshadow

Senior Member

01-13-2013

alright

one question though

why should i worry at all about my fury then?


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Quote:
gentlemenshadow:
alright

one question though

why should i worry at all about my fury then?


There will be more than 1 second elapse between last hits, which means your fury will decay at a massive rate between last hits and likely will deplete completely before you can last hit another minion. A smart opponent will engage you between last hits and will not risk fighting you just after you kill a couple minions. A smart Tryndamere will anticipate his opponent and try to maintain fury to create a threat level that his opponent is afraid to risk engaging with even if it means pushing the lane, especially just before engaging the opponent himself. A smart opponent will not sit in a prolonged duel with Tryndamere (more than 3 hits or so) because full fury Trynda is scary. Skirmishing is the way to beat Tryndamere, not dueling, similar to jax.


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coffee addict

Senior Member

01-13-2013

he's fine imo

what he lacks in tankyness he makes up for with sustain

vamp scepter + double dorans blades = unbeatable lane sustain

there's only a handful of champs that he can't beat up once he gets a few items and a full rage bar

trynd is an extremely underrated champion


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Quote:
Hamster ov Doom:
he's fine imo

what he lacks in tankyness he makes up for with sustain

vamp scepter + double dorans blades = unbeatable lane sustain

there's only a handful of champs that he can't beat up once he gets a few items and a full rage bar

trynd is an extremely underrated champion



The issue isn't whether he is strong once he gets ahead, or how weak he is before he gets ahead, or how he manages to cover the flaws in his kit with his monstrous sustain.

The issue is the flaws in his kit. Flaws, not weaknesses or strengths. His heal doesn't do what it was designed to do (help him bounce back into lane), his fury is disproportionately easy to maintain if he already amassed fury and disproportionately harder to maintain if he has no fury, and his ultimate exacerbates his issues. Tryndamere is either too powerful to play against or too weak to play as. The only middle ground is a tiny spot of mud, using sustain to cover his flaws. But assuming Tryndamere isn't in a position where he is ahead, assuming he is in a typical lane where he has to stand on that tiny spot of mud to work, everything he does for his team can be done better by other champions. He doesn't have something to call his own anymore. He is a shadow of his former self.


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coffee addict

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Quote:
I am Trynda:
The issue isn't whether he is strong once he gets ahead, or how weak he is before he gets ahead, or how he manages to cover the flaws in his kit with his monstrous sustain.

The issue is the flaws in his kit. Flaws, not weaknesses or strengths. His heal doesn't do what it was designed to do (help him bounce back into lane), his fury is disproportionately easy to maintain if he already amassed fury and disproportionately harder to maintain if he has no fury, and his ultimate exacerbates his issues. Tryndamere is either too powerful to play against or too weak to play as. The only middle ground is a tiny spot of mud, using sustain to cover his flaws. But assuming Tryndamere isn't in a position where he is ahead, assuming he is in a typical lane where he has to stand on that tiny spot of mud to work, everything he does for his team can be done better by other champions. He doesn't have something to call his own anymore. He is a shadow of his former self.


he's a glass cannon snowball champ and is working as intended

i don't agree that other champions do what he does but better... that's not true.

his w is a 60% aoe slow with a -80AD debuff... that's ****ing insane are you kidding me? not to mention his massive damage and mobility once he gets his core items...

trynd can solo carry a team without breaking a sweat


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

01-13-2013

Quote:
Hamster ov Doom:
he's a glass cannon snowball champ and is working as intended

i don't agree that other champions do what he does but better... that's not true.

his w is a 60% aoe slow with a -80AD debuff... that's ****ing insane are you kidding me? not to mention his massive damage and mobility once he gets his core items...

trynd can solo carry a team without breaking a sweat


When Tryndamere was conceived in beta he was never designed to be a snowball champ, unlike Mastery Yi and Katarina. He has been reworked once since then and a great deal of synergy that was once present in his kit has been lost after the rework. A champion whose damage scales up as his health scales down, with no way to maintain that health without being ahead enough to maintain fury and consuming that fury, his only damage multiplier, does not have the synergy he once had unless the point is moot (he is already crushing the lane and doesn't need synergy).

Even a karma can carry a team given the right advantages and opportunities and items. Tryndamere can too.


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Mokkun

Senior Member

01-13-2013

I have a serious issue with the perma-immunity as long as hitting something concept for his ult.
He can hit champions, minions, wards, monsters, during a teamfight to keep that up, and is fighting in a compact area. He can change targets as necessary. Basically, he can wait out the majority of cc.

Or... he gets hit with 2 back-to-back cc's that hold him down for his entire (now very short delay) rage decay, and ends up with significantly less ult time.

Both are possible in any given game, both are bad options.

He's better off with a stable, guaranteed ult.

Also, this basically becomes the same rules as Shyvanna's ult, only with significantly more impact. Shy is on steroids during her ult. Tryndamere is a god during his ult.