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[suggestion] Possible Thresh Ult Rework

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Kaliphear

Senior Member

01-12-2013

His ultimate just doesn't "feel" like an ultimate at this point, though. Yeah, it's a useful ability to enhance the natural damage of your combo in certain situations, and that's great, but for the length of the cooldown and the catch that each enemy can only take damage from a single wall, it just doesn't feel all that satisfying to use.

Honestly, even before the most recent changes, his ultimate just doesn't have the sort of presence in a fight to justify its cooldown, let alone its implementation as his ultimate. At least in my opinion.


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Stexe

Recruiter

01-12-2013

Definitely agree about his ult not really fitting. The biggest disconnect with Thresh is his ultimate -- it really is a strange ultimate, and while there is some synergy with his other skills (like Q into them, ult, E to throw them into the wall) it doesn't really make sense with his theme.


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Ragequitternob

Recruiter

01-12-2013

Quote:
CertainlyT:
This is a good idea. In fact, I tried some iterations that were similar. Unfortunately, it ran into a lot of small issues that added up to a sub-optimal ability.

At the time, I thought I wanted the ult to be a reliability spell that gave you the ability to execute the rest of your kit. Specifically, as a targeted spell it was just super powerful at setting up almost guaranteed Qs (and the name "Death Sentence" is pretty apt when it comes to landing this spell). It turns out, with this sort of added self-created reliability, Thresh would need to be toned down dramatically. Instead, I decided to embrace unreliability (and the added highs that such skills can have) as a central part of Thresh's design.

Now, the ability functions in the opposite direction -- if you land a skillshot, you can combo it with your walls to drag or push the enemy through, regardless of their willingness. This seemed more unique (the targeted version felt a bit like Nautilus to me) and just feels so cool.


Yes your right but wouldn't that make it under power when in a team fight , cause if it was meant to be a support single target spell and short slows wouldn't be quite useful. His Q spell if possible could have a quicker dragging speed back to thresh to himself, cause pulling himself to the enemy is lot like amumu and pulling enemy in is a lot like blitzcrank but thresh is basically in the middle. while lacking the range of blitzcranks rocket grab , he doesn't have a stun like amumu when grabbing. Make it not really reliable during a teamfight and not a support id say rather a 1v1 would be more useful ? He is gonna need some crowd control effect on ability ( which should be his ulti which was made into single target) though his E is a unique skill shot but other ability like his Q and R wouldn't be that useful as a support


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lm Krueger ml

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Quote:
CertainlyT:
This is a good idea. In fact, I tried some iterations that were similar. Unfortunately, it ran into a lot of small issues that added up to a sub-optimal ability.

At the time, I thought I wanted the ult to be a reliability spell that gave you the ability to execute the rest of your kit. Specifically, as a targeted spell it was just super powerful at setting up almost guaranteed Qs (and the name "Death Sentence" is pretty apt when it comes to landing this spell). It turns out, with this sort of added self-created reliability, Thresh would need to be toned down dramatically. Instead, I decided to embrace unreliability (and the added highs that such skills can have) as a central part of Thresh's design.

Now, the ability functions in the opposite direction -- if you land a skillshot, you can combo it with your walls to drag or push the enemy through, regardless of their willingness. This seemed more unique (the targeted version felt a bit like Nautilus to me) and just feels so cool.


I see what you're saying about the power of a near guaranteed Q. However, there's a number of things I'd keep in mind.

First off its a technique that will drop off in the late game (assuming we're looking at competitive play) as the tank will make sure to either break the Ult or simply intercept the Q or both. So long as a team is organised they should be able to sacrifice the right player to eat the damage and slow pretty quickly, even in a large teamfight.

It would however be incredibly strong in the laning phase or if you catch someone alone, or as a ganking tool for that matter. This would make Thresh a very good kill lane pick. However, again there are some very obvious counters. Ezreal is a clear choice in bot lane, since his arcane shift could happily escape such a skill instantly. Equally champions like Zed or Kassadin come to mind, both of whom can relocate themselves without actually breaking the wall of the box. Then there are a ton of champions who could charge out of it like Gragas or Tryn who would eat the damage and slow but still escape any follow up. This is assuming you leave it as a world object as opposed to a player debuff of course. Allowing it to be removed with Cleanse or QSS might be going a bit too far.

My point is its not an instant I win button.

You mention that it would need to be lowered in power in other area's, but it absolutely needs to have a strong enough debuff/damage/anything component to stop people just not caring and walking through it every time. Considering you can totally avoid the entire Ult by using any teleport style ability within about a half second of being hit by it, I think the large damage and slow is perfectly reasonable.


Lastly, I agree you definitely have embraced the opposite 'unreliability' as you say. Trading the guaranteed lockout with 5 walls and room to move, as well as making it much harder to land. On the surface I guess I don't mind the concept of making it less reliable, but I think at present it just feels a bit odd like a clunky 'Event Horizon'. You can certainly drag people through a wall, but that's kind of the only thing you can hope to do with it.. which feels a bit lame, and its not even that easy to do. This is exacerbated by the fact that you can only knock them through one wall per person.

You end up doing one of two things: either you trap someone in the Ult and quickly attempt to throw them through a wall before it ends; or you drop it on a team directly. Both of these require you to directly put yourself in danger to achieve them. As a support there is almost no opportunity to get tanky enough to initiate on a priority target, let alone a full team in order to drop this. It'll be nearly impossible to use effectively, and that gets worse the higher the skill level goes.

You can't however make it ranged without significantly changing how it functions...


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Korosse

Member

01-12-2013

Genius. The root should take longer, though. If they can escape within 1/4 second, why would they hang around longer? It would just be a flash of no vision and if they move fast I doubt they would notice anything of it.


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Macrofarad

Senior Member

01-12-2013

pulled from another thread, Allow thresh to target an ally with his ult. Very small change that would make a huge difference


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lm Krueger ml

Senior Member

01-12-2013

@CertainlyT

I was thinking some more, and if you want to keep it as something slightly more 'unreliable' in terms of being able to combo off yourself, I had one more variation.

- 'The Box' can now be placed at range.
- when placed, all enemies in range of 'The Box' are instantly dragged for 1/4 second towards it's center before the walls are created.
- anyone inside 'The Box' has no vision beyond it's walls.
- base damage when breaking a wall increased.
- cooldown reduced.

This is what I'd see as an AOE version of the original I posted. The significant point being that you can't drop it on a players head anymore. That fact means you can justifiably increase the damage of walls and lower the cooldown. You could also revert the change to only being affected by a single wall. It's basically Orianna Ult and Graves 'Smoke Screen' combined, but with the damage component being far more unreliable. It also retains the psychological elements and team counters of the current design.

This version is even easier to escape from, but has the added bonus of being able to affect more than one person. It also allows players to dodge the skill shot as it comes in, although they have no vision before it enters the box so that's easier said than done. Still less reliable though.

This is probably more in line with what you are now going for at least.


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Ragequitternob

Recruiter

01-12-2013

Quote:
Macrofarad:
pulled from another thread, Allow thresh to target an ally with his ult. Very small change that would make a huge difference


Totally agreed on that idea for the fact that thresh is a support and could save a lot of ally by his ultimate, but wouldn't that be totally useless if your ally got constant movement cause the skill shouldn't follow your allies.


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Ashurion

Senior Member

01-12-2013

This doesn't mention if you can use teleport skills.


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ShiznazTM

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Quote:
Akuen:
From which state are you referring to? It's already been modified once.


The original state. I made a thread about it.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=33419781#post33419781